the thing is the point of forums is to learn and extend knowledge etc, and he came in with good intent, with a disclaimer, and brought up a point he thought was valid, and ur just a d|ck about it who thinks he's superior, because he's using a thought process that gets mocked from time to time.

!

My comments are not directly pointed at donnico, just a general view of how hsmtt has deteriorated in quality.

diction and tone seemed malicious, which is not necessary, regardless of the situation.

hypocrite ITP !

1) As has been said, starting stacks were only 50k.


2) You just couldn't be more wrong. This structure was absolutely amazing. Starting 600 BB deep only to have 50 BB stacks 6 levels later is the worst. Having 4 levels of 150/300 was awesome.


3) Wrong. My bluffing frequency on the 1st hand is the same as it is on the 20th hand, and if yours isn't, you're doing it wrong (especially if you have previous history vs your opponent).


4) A bunch of people say to 4 bet. I honestly think in this spot that if you play well postflop, you shouldn't have a 4 betting range vs me at all. I'm not going to say why. If you're afraid of getting outplayed, then 4 bet away.


5) You need to think more about ranges when you play poker rather than "what do I have right now?". It's best for my overall range in this spot to bet small on the flop, and increase bet size on the turn.


6. A) This is very true.
B) Charder failed to mention that he acted fairly slow in the hand, which basically negates the importance of me acting quickly. I'm obviously thinking about what I'm going to do when it's his turn to act, so you can basically add that time to the amount time I spent thinking on each decision.


7. Todd is right. I can absolutely be bluffing hands that beat A2 but lose to AK, although I often play those hands differently on the 3 previous streets (but not always). And if I bet A2 on the river, it would 100% be a bluff (I only clarify this because someone suggested otherwise).


8. Bet sizes are: 3500 into 6500 on flop. 11,500 into 13,500 on turn, and 32,000 into 36,500 on river. Anyone that thinks Turn or River is an overbet is just wrong. Every time someone calls the turn a PSB it makes me cringe. If you think my betsizing indicates strength or weakness in this hand, you really need to learn how to betsize with your range rather than your hand.


9. Whether or not I barrel turn depends on how often I think he has hands like JJ or an ace that he will fold. Bet sizing is standard regardless of my hand. You still make a good point that even if I was bluffing preflop and/or on flop, I'm likely to be huge by the river.


10. Actually didn't know about it until Hevad IMed me about it just now.


11. When in position, being deepstacked should increase your 3 betting range, not decrease it. And if I'm increasing my bluff range, I have to inrease my value range as well.


12. I think Charder played the hand flawlessly preflop/flop/turn. I don't like any other option on any of those streets. Not going to comment directly on his river play just yet.


13. It's entirely possible that my range on the turn is so strong, that I will bluff every single possible bluff combination on the river (including hands as strong as nut 1 pairs or weak 2 pairs). It's also entirely possible that despite that being the case, the river is still a fold. It's also fairly likely that AK is the exact hand in his range that should sometimes call/sometimes fold, where all hands better always call, and all hands worse always fold.


If prop bets on what I had get big enough, I will share my hand for 2% of the winners cut ;p I swear to 100% tell the truth. Obv if you don't trust me, you shouldn't make the bet.

and 1% for his manager

Nice post ZJ. What do you think the top of his range is after the turn action? Some people think he looks pretty strong after calling a 3b, c/c c/c and others seem to think he can never be too strong(I'm prob in the latter camp). If you don't wanna answer or want to wait till there's more discussion that's cool

Do people think ZJ checks back AK on a 2 river?

Of course he can have the nut flush here. He should never play flop or turn differently unless he thinks I will call turn with a set, but not bet river with one.

This is a much better way of saying this:

Justin,
I know you said "especially if you have previous history" but you really have the same bluffing frequency on the first hand as the 20th vs an unknown?

Also there are tons of times in tournaments where your sizing should absolutely depend on your hand and not your range. This probably isn't one of them but for both arguments I think you are overvaluing the importance of always being perfectly balanced.

I don't use the phrase unknown in live poker. It doesn't exist unless you are blind and deaf. Obv if I think someone is likely to call, I bluff less, and vice versa. If I somehow can't tell if they're good or not, or respect me or not, then I suppose I might lean towards the safer, lower variance tight style.

I'm not overvaluing the importance of being balanced. I have played a ton of cash and tournaments with Charder, and we both respect each others' games, and we're going to play a lot again in the future. There are some spots that can sometimes go either way, but with these respective stack sizes, the other bet sizing options are all pretty terrible.

after justins explanation i tend to think he had a flush???

justin - do you play this event more "cautiously" than say a random $1k-5k event? I highly doubt it but figured i'd ask. i guess what i'm saying is what if you have QQ here and he 4 bets you all-in preflop (ok a little dramatic but to make my point), do you have any problem flipping on the first hand of the tourney given the action to that point?

thanks.

thanks a bunch for your response a lot of what you said was really helpful...I totally agree that charder played this hand perfectly and that calling/folding the river are about equal and that's why i like a call on the river because i believe that any 50% proposition in a tournament is +ev due to the tiered payout structure but i'm not sure how to go about doing the math on that...i've seen some math showing it to be -ev but i'm not sure i buy that

question: the above is contrary to what i thought was correct, because we can play our implied odds when deep, and direct odds when short so I have always thought that our 3betting range should decrease with larger stack size...can you explain where my logic may be flawed?

tx again

Having a wider 3-betting range effectively increases the stakes, and this is something you want to do when in position, and something you want to avoid when out of position. Just make sure it's still balanced. You can't only do it with bluffs.

Yes! Twice today actually.

Apparently, the second time was the charm!

We might want to shove the turn for value because the river could be another spade which would cause us to lose value from small flushes and sets or scare us when we have AA/88/77 or a medium flush.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I see 100 posts of people saying how tough this river spot is here and I just think it can all be avoided by shoving the turn which is +EV. Why do we have to play a guessing game when instead we can make ZJ play the guessing game?

This will be my last post in this thread as I guess no one here agrees with me.

This question hasn't been asked enough:

How much fold equity should I think I have on the turn?

not a lot personally, hinging on charders flop calling range being more weighted towards strong hands and strong draws when figuring ZJ is going to have more barrels than donkey kong

but that would just be my reaction, if more history dictates floats and peeling weaker SD hands than so be it. but in this dynamic i think u arent getting many folds on the turn.

Ok if I change unknown to "relative unknown" you seem to agree so that's fine.

With Charder it I agree that your sizing should be pretty close to the same with your whole range here. That is assuming that you can't differentiate your bet sizing with your specific hand to increase your EV now and in the future which you might not be able to do against charder.

Against people who you are not going to be playing against a lot and people who are less skilled being balanced doesn't matter close to as much as taking the most optimal line with your specific hand and I think suggesting so is kind of crazy.

not trying to jack this into an exploitive vs unexploitable debate, but I do think there's some value in being unexploitable vs an unknown, since it's often difficult to figure out in which way an unknown is exploitable, and if you try to exploit an unknown who turns out to be smarter than you thought it can be somewhat disastrous. basically depends on how good at profiling you are, but I think trying to balance your range against a random can definitely be a valid strategy

actually this is the crux of the debate...the funny thing is that if ZJ is playing his hand unexploitably, he would have TT exactly here...his bet sizing pre and post is unexploitable with TT and exploitable with every other hand in his range but he has to have some mirror hands in his range so he's not flipping his hand over when he bets this way...funny, i think i leveled myself into thinking he didn't have TT just because if a computer played this hand i'm sure it would only play TT like this so naturally a human couldn't possibly play his cards face up

hmmm....why am i liking fold now?

what in the fuc

thanks for your post Justin, and you bring up a good point about me taking a while to act in this hand. I believe the turn i thought the longest of any street, and i think if you were bluffing the river, you picked up something there with me not being super strong...i guess thats my read on that...fun hand for sure..

I think it should be pretty obvious OP ain't that strong here like 95% of the time.