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Mid-High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of mid-high stakes MTT strategy

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Old 01-20-2010, 09:21 PM   #126
DickFuld
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
Zj can have the other AK FWIW and if he chose to play TT like this I'm sure he can have it.
Why would he shove AK on the river? As a bluff? No way, really doubt AK is in his range.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:41 PM   #127
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by sliceman View Post
wtf does that mean to see where your at, please do not use this terminology it makes you sound like an idiot.

you should raise for two reasons, for pure value, as a bluff. you do not raise to 'find out where your at'

fyi any psychologist worth a salt will know that your mean spirited reply to a person who was humbly asking for help says 1 of 3 things:

1-you resort to rudeness because you are unhappy with your life
2-you resort to rudeness because you are unhappy with your tiny penile instrument
3- both

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Originally Posted by Billy Bibbit View Post
So you raise the flop, he calls, and the turn is the king of spades. Where are you at?

boned. i get it. thats why i asked. i didn't consider wtftd if he flats a check raise. check call from there or check fold? he check call/ folds anyway but now has more info/reason to fold...

fwiw this isn't unanimous by any stretch
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:48 PM   #128
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

agreed, sliceman was out of line w/ that nonsense
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:03 PM   #129
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

out of line??? a guy who wants to 'raise to see where were at' replies to a 25k high roller thread and I'm out of line?
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:12 PM   #130
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

yep
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:05 AM   #131
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

great hand. im folding the river and playing just as you did up to there. i think more importance should be placed on his turn bet sizing, especially after the smallish flop bet. doesnt seem like hes worried about letting you peel the flop when your range has to contain some spades and straight draw combos. i expect him to show up with T9ss or QJss a lot of the time here. havent played with ZJ enough to say anything about his bluff frequency here though.
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Old 01-21-2010, 01:25 AM   #132
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by busto_soon View Post
btw why would we ever 4b/f pre? Do that with A2s or AA or 97s or whatever.
busto stacks a guy in the turbo $50r at 150-300 flatting a raise ip w/ 97c. true story. how'd you end up? nh btw.

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Originally Posted by sliceman View Post
out of line??? a guy who wants to 'raise to see where were at' replies to a 25k high roller thread and I'm out of line?
^^^ yes. you are forgetting that most people replying in most threads are not rolled for the MTTs they are commenting on. obv you are god and your roll is infinity and thats sweet. you are also forgetting that ZJ probably isn't playing a 25k as tight as most people. i'm not saying to get all 900k chips or whatever into the middle on the river, i'm simply asking if there is any other route to take----and wtf is so wrong with betting/raising/blah. wtf card can hit the river that will make you call a bet? are you just hoping that ZJ checks behind? or are you willing to call a 10k bet there? i think this hand is stupid.
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:39 AM   #133
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
Zj can have the other AK FWIW and if he chose to play TT like this I'm sure he can have it.
you really think he's playing TT pf like this on the first hand of a deep stack tourney?
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:03 AM   #134
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by sliceman View Post
out of line??? a guy who wants to 'raise to see where were at' replies to a 25k high roller thread and I'm out of line?
it's one thing to provide constructive criticism, but your post was far from that
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:13 AM   #135
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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out of line??? a guy who wants to 'raise to see where were at' replies to a 25k high roller thread and I'm out of line?
Doosh
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:37 AM   #136
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

I know it seems like everyone is ignoring my thoughts on shoving the turn, so I'd just like to try and show that it's very likely unexploitably +EV.

So, hands in ZJ's range that beat us (very liberal range here): 43, 54, 65, T9, J9, JT, Q9, QT, QJ, AA, KK, 88, 88, 88, 77, 77, 77.

So 17 hands. AK against this range: 25.4%.

Hands we freeroll but have to call our face-up shove: AK, AK, AK, AK.

So 4 hands. AK against this range: 60.23%.

Our shove is for 32,000 more into a pot of 36,450 giving him 2.14:1. I don't think there are any other hands that are 32% against us so he has to fold everything else.

When we shove, get called, and win, we win 32,000+11,500+13,450 = 56,950.
When we shove, get called, and lose, we lose 11,500+32,000 = 43,500.
When we shove and he folds, we win 11,500+13,450 = 24,950.

In order for our shove to be unexploitably +EV, he has to have x hands that must fold where:

[17*(.254*56950 + .746*-43500) + 4*(.6023*56950 + .3977*-43500) + x*(24950)]/(17+4+x) > 0

--> x > 9.53

Since you guys are including all these different gutshots in his range on the river, the number of bluffing hands (plus hands like A8, A7, 87) in his range on the turn has got to be bigger than 10.

Why is it that we are always striving to find unexploitable shoves preflop with 22 BBs with Q8s but not for postflop unexploitable shoves? Especially when flatting leads to this gross river spot.
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:00 AM   #137
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

This is hsmtt and this is a thread about a 25k hand not some $5fo.

If I hurt anybodys internet feelings, I apologize
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Old 01-21-2010, 07:35 AM   #138
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

openshoving 50k 150/300 with AA is also unexploitably +EV

oh wait
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:16 PM   #139
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by RaineTech View Post
Why would he shove AK on the river? As a bluff? No way, really doubt AK is in his range.
I can't imagine him checking flop or turn with AK. When he gets to the river he will shove some of the time for sure.
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Old 01-21-2010, 01:17 PM   #140
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by sliceman View Post
This is hsmtt and this is a thread about a 25k hand not some $5fo.

If I hurt anybodys internet feelings, I apologize
It seemed pretty clear to me that your post was simply an attempt to make yourself sound smart/make others sound stupid, which is entirely uncalled for in this forum, and in turn you did the opposite.

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Old 01-21-2010, 01:33 PM   #141
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

Just really looked at this thread....(I know Christian I suck...you pointed me to it a week ago)

My opinion on the play of this hand is very similar to countless others like it where someone takes this kind of line....

I really think you need to bet something...somewhere.

I am not even sure how much or on what street but you need to slow this pot down and take some control of the betting.

As played I guess you have to fold.
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Old 01-21-2010, 01:38 PM   #142
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by Double Ice View Post
openshoving 50k 150/300 with AA is also unexploitably +EV

oh wait
Come on, man. What is the point of this post? AA is so much easier to play in so many more spots that obviously we can take more +EV lines than shoving preflop. In this hand, there's one more street of action and given ZJ's bet sizing on the turn, he might well shove the river. We already know that it's going to be a tough decision on a lot of rivers and when we hit, he's almost always going to slow down because the As is such an obvious part of our range. Don't make insults just to make insults.
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:14 PM   #143
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

chill man, his point was very valid and only moderately insulting.
you showed that shoving turn is +EV relative to folding, his point was that your calculations are irrelevant, he wasn't insulting just to insult.

just because it's going to be a tough decision on the river doesn't mean we should shove.
if you can come up with a reasonable range/actions he takes with that range such that shoving turn is better than making a decision on the river, go for it, but I don't think you will. intuitively, it's because he either has enough bluffs in his range that you should let him barrel river and call it off, or he does not have enough bluffs in his range and you should call turn and fold river because shoving turn would run into his monsters too often

the answer is no
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:20 PM   #144
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by GREEAR10 View Post
Everyone likes preflop? I mean you are 6 handed..No one likes makeing it 9-10K here instead of calling and getting owned most of the time?
Todd referref to the benefits of 4 betting (the disadvantages of flat calling oop), and I agree that 4 betting is certainly possible.
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:36 PM   #145
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by NHFunkii View Post
chill man, his point was very valid and only moderately insulting.
you showed that shoving turn is +EV relative to folding, his point was that your calculations are irrelevant, he wasn't insulting just to insult.

just because it's going to be a tough decision on the river doesn't mean we should shove.
if you can come up with a reasonable range/actions he takes with that range such that shoving turn is better than making a decision on the river, go for it, but I don't think you will. intuitively, it's because he either has enough bluffs in his range that you should let him barrel river and call it off, or he does not have enough bluffs in his range and you should call turn and fold river because shoving turn would run into his monsters too often

the answer is no
First, I appreciate this response so much more than Double Ice's.

I'm perfectly fine with check/call, check/call UI here. I just don't see how we can check/call, check/fold UI against ZJ here when check/raise on the turn is +EV.

That's what I stated in my first post which was met with all this hate for the turn raise as if it was -EV. I wanted to show that it's for sure +EV against ZJ. Also, this is just part of the benefit of shoving the turn here as it allows us to add this hand to a shoving range that includes all our flushes and AA and makes it quite a tough decision for ZJ with his small flushes and sets.
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:14 PM   #146
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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u r stupid
i know what you are but what am i?

u ****ing plebeian.
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:22 PM   #147
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

sliceman... get a grip
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:29 PM   #148
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by ImAllInNow View Post
Also, this is just part of the benefit of shoving the turn here as it allows us to add this hand to a shoving range that includes all our flushes and AA and makes it quite a tough decision for ZJ with his small flushes and sets.
We're not shoving our flushes or AA or any hand on the turn. Why the **** would we? Jesus, you come to the conclusion that there are enough bluffs in Justin's range to unexploitably c/r the turn and you want to c/r the turn to fold out his bluffs? We want those bluffs in his range on the river. No one here is unexploitably shoving Q8s so they can fold out 93o, and 93o has a lot more equity against Q8s than his bluffs have against AK.

Stop trying to save yourself from a tough decision and just play good instead. Justin knows we're not shoving any hand for value because he knows us shoving any hand for value would be retarded, so he's calling our c/shove with all of the hands you want to "put him to a decision" with. Having a balanced c/shoving range is NOT better than having a strong c/c range in this spot against this villain.
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:33 PM   #149
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by DFish View Post
It seemed pretty clear to me that your post was simply an attempt to make yourself sound smart/make others sound stupid, which is entirely uncalled for in this forum, and in turn you did the opposite.

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sliceman... get a grip
wtvr, hsmtt has become a joke and once in a while we get a good thread but it has to get ruined by ppl that have no idea what they're doing.
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:38 PM   #150
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

Does anyone else open this thread every day hoping for a post by ZJ, only to be terribly disappointed each time?
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