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First hand of PCA Highroller

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01-18-2010 , 03:06 PM

#51

stevie_is_god

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,757

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aln_The_Kid

Result?

sounds like he folded and if so i guess we wont know the real hand justin had..

then again, maybe he didnt fold..

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01-18-2010 , 03:30 PM

#52

charder30

formerly known as zj123

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 27,426

Quote:

Originally Posted by jordankickz

I don't think Charder would be check raising many combo draws on the flop and tbh I don't think he really check raises any hands at all on the flop.

yup, i mean i will c/r some hands some % of the time, but im much more likely to just call the flop with those hands...

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01-18-2010 , 04:39 PM

#53

MrMaholla

newbie

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 24

such a sick spot cuz ZJ is such a high level thinker that its tough to really apply an accurate range to him on the first hand of 25k high rollers playing this deepstacked at a 6 handed table. conventional thinking would lead me to believe he's only 3betting TT+ AQ+ but it clearly isn't the case here. somehow natural intuition and the consensus here is he has some sort of XsXs hand or set, but tbh it really feels like there is a strong chance u guys are chopping this up. such a weird/gross spot in the first hand of this 25k.
wug happened, u puke then fold?

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01-18-2010 , 04:46 PM

#54

IsItHisBrownEyes?

newbie

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 25

fold pre

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01-18-2010 , 04:52 PM

#55

gotwotevaon

adept

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 823

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsItHisBrownEyes?

fold pre

Ban alert!!

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01-18-2010 , 05:04 PM

#56

Kirbynator

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 52,004

do you think he thinks you repop ak preflop?

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01-18-2010 , 05:08 PM

#57

agyness

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 375

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirbynator

do you think he thinks you repop ak preflop?

was thinking this myself, i think he is trying to throw u off a hand like AQ AJ etc. But the river is very close id have to call in this spot and kill myself after

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01-18-2010 , 05:44 PM

#58

Jamsym1

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 604

Call.

The main reason being his flop betsize doesn't look like a strong hand wanting to get allin over 3 streets.

The bet was 3500 into 6450. If he had spades or AA AK 77 88 etc i would imagine he bets closer to 5k.

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01-18-2010 , 05:47 PM

#59

ohudac

banned

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,168

lead flop?

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01-18-2010 , 06:01 PM

#60

NicholasJ

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,761

I am surprised there isn't more discussion about preflop. The point is, these spots don't occur versus me or anyone else who simply doesn't call 3bets oop. I guess I have seen some supposedly good players do it, but it always surprises me and esp to see the OP do it.

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01-18-2010 , 06:03 PM

#61

Ansky

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 17,523

Pre is good, I would call river.

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01-18-2010 , 06:04 PM

#62

Eagles

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 13,022

Quote:

Originally Posted by adanthar

You had a bluffcatcher (that could get there) on the turn. You still have one on the river and villain just 3 bet, bet bet bet with 2 "really quick"s on the first hand of a 25K. ZJ might have a bluffing range and he might even have a spew range, but I don't think it's one that acts with not much thought behind it both preflop and on the river.

I don't want to get too much into it, but Justin plays a ton of high buyin live MTTS. He is certainly capable of making big bluffs if he thinks its a good spot. The fact that its the first hand or a 25k makes me more inclined to think Justin is bluffing because Charder doesn't necessarily want to hero call of a few hundred bbs on the first hand of a 25k.

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01-18-2010 , 06:07 PM

#63

adanthar

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 20,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagles

I definitely agree with you on all of this, but I think almost everyone that's going to 3 bet pre and then 3 barrel the entire way down are going to at least consider giving up at some point, especially on this board. It's not that acting quickly is a tell, it's that it's hard to decide "well, I'm gonna bet a lot of chips on the first hand of a 25K no matter what" within 5 seconds.

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01-18-2010 , 06:48 PM

#64

TStar

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,521

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImAllInNow

1. As a semi bluff. I mean you have the nut flush bluff card and we are 200BBs deep on the first hand. He's gonna at least consider folding small sets and small flushes. When you are called you have ~13ish outs.

2. For freeroll/merge value. If he's calling with small sets and small flushes, maybe he calls with A8/A7 or AK. He might be hoping you have just the As.

3. To prevent yourself from being put in this horrible spot on the river. This alone is a dumb reason to shove the turn, but it does add some value to the move.

SO you are somehow bluffing AND value betting here just to avoid a tough spot!

FWIW, I call pretty quickly here as I doubt villain thinks we will flat AA or KK here this deep OOP, so our range is very weak in his eyes imho

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01-18-2010 , 06:54 PM

#65

DickFuld

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,113

Quote:

Originally Posted by TStar

I disagree with this, charder won't always be 4b AA/KK here. But either way it makes little difference since zeejustin won't be shoving anything worse than AA on the river for value. Despite there being little history between the two, both know a decent bit about each others' game and both mutually understand this/recognize each other as very good players.

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01-18-2010 , 07:07 PM

#66

ImAllInNow

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,856

Quote:

Originally Posted by TStar

SO you are somehow bluffing AND value betting here just to avoid a tough spot!

Ever heard of a merge? If he calls with sets and small flushes, he probably calls with A8/A7/87 and AK.

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01-18-2010 , 07:15 PM

#67

Ansky

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 17,523

in my live experience with zj he pretty much always acts very fast

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01-18-2010 , 07:20 PM

#68

blainestar

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaineTech

. But either way it makes little difference since zeejustin won't be shoving anything worse than AA on the river for value.

Ummm what about KK 88 77 ? and maybe even AK

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01-18-2010 , 07:26 PM

#69

Dantes

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 10,833

Quote:

Originally Posted by blainestar

Ummm what about KK 88 77 ? and maybe even AK

I think he's flatting his med pairs quite a bit more than 3 betting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ansky

in my live experience with zj he pretty much always acts very fast

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...master-475011/

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01-18-2010 , 07:36 PM

#70

roo400

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,407

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImAllInNow

1. As a semi bluff. I mean you have the nut flush bluff card and we are 200BBs deep on the first hand. He's gonna at least consider folding small sets and small flushes. When you are called you have ~13ish outs.

2. For freeroll/merge value. If he's calling with small sets and small flushes, maybe he calls with A8/A7 or AK. He might be hoping you have just the As.

3. To prevent yourself from being put in this horrible spot on the river. This alone is a dumb reason to shove the turn, but it does add some value to the move.

I don't think he would be betting the turn with those hands with the intent of folding to a shove. I don't think a c/r folds anything worse than top 2 that ZJ bets and except for maybe A8/A7, there's nothing that we beat that calls our c/r.

I would call river as our line screams like we're going to fold to a river shove. AK is really at the top of our range and like kirb said, he might not even put that in our range.

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01-18-2010 , 07:57 PM

#71

TStar

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,521

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaineTech

I agree that he is not shoving worse but ZJ has to take AA, KK and AK out of Charders range a significant % of the time here which increases the amount of bluffs in his range.

Given are at the top of our range, underrepped and most are still advising a fold makes me think that ZJ could take this line with his whole range.

Last edited by TStar; 01-18-2010 at 08:03 PM.

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01-18-2010 , 08:16 PM

#72

gotwotevaon

adept

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 823

Is ZJ really that much polarized on the river as you seem to think?

Would really love to have his image when sitting at the table with bunch of pros.

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01-18-2010 , 08:54 PM

#73

dudeoflife

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,525

I think it's bad for ZJ to be shoving river with his flushes and sets since it's so unlikely to get any value from it especially 1st hand of 25k where people are unlikely to make hero calls and charder hand looks exactly like AQ.
Since he's not bad I think that makes it a call.

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01-18-2010 , 09:01 PM

#74

prolax13

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 3,566

quite a pickle you got here

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01-18-2010 , 09:01 PM

#75

psyduck

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,129

Some random stuff: Our hand = A

except for the blocker, and ZJ always acts quickly so that shouldn't sway your decision by anything.

For people saying that we are protected from getting bluffed out because we have flushes, that is a moot point because we show up with hands like AxQ

Jx maybe like A

88/77 AKo A

MUCH more often than XX

, so if ZJ thinks our range to stack off on this board is only flushes then he can bet 3x with his whole range and that is a pretty profitable triple barrel because we call/call/fold SO often.

Last edited by psyduck; 01-18-2010 at 09:09 PM.

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