OP/ZJ-

in this instance, when check-flatting the turn, exactly what are we doing that for? to hope to showdown the river for free? i can't imagine you figured ZJ to check the river? are there any cards save an Ace or King that can fall on the river that will make you play this differently? i'm still stuck on why we flat the turn if we plan on folding the non-spade river ?

thanks.

No already. Since no one in the thread is suggesting it and getting mad at the people who do maybe you should think about why it might be terrible?

We are calling on turn because we might have the best hand, checkshoving is absolute suicide, and most definitely nowhere resembling optimal . As someone mentioned to demonstrate this concept, shoving 15K w/ AA at 150/300 is also unexploitable but there are much more profitable lines.

Think about what will happen if you checkraise ZJ on the turn. He will fold all his garbage and call you when you're crushed. If you think he has nothing it should be pretty clear that check/calling turn and river will make more money than shipping it and letting him fold air. Furthermore, this is only if you are ahead. ZJ is not stupid and is barreling twice into someone good who probably has a pretty strong hand given the action, wouldn't you think he has a strong hand himself or at least a plan for the hand? What do you think will make you more money, shoving the turn forcing him to fold trash and getting snapped off when he has you, or checking and letting him bluff if that's what you think he's doing? I'll let you decide.

Is this definitely true? Isn't there a decent chance he folds middle or bottom (I think it was 77 and 88, don't remember) flopped set hero check-raises the turn?

I think flatting pre here is fine altho i understand why ppl want to 4b pre here.. I think it makes the hand easier to play but I don't think it's optimal to proceed by 4b here.. The first 2 streets are fairly std. and I call the river b/c we have blockers to the top of his range and he doesn't expect us to have a hand we can call a shove with very often on the river.. Charder pretty much has the top of his range here and really wants to fold it and since he is going to have the top of his range such a small % of the time can't ZJ shove 100% of his range profitably on the river?

Not when you can more profitably call the AK and still profitably 4b the J5s

Cool bro.

For the 2nd part. Can you design a basic algorithm where you can play AA + KK profitably OOP 100k BB deep?

Are you 3xing? Are you 100xing? What size are you betting postflop on 8 high flops. Or are you check calling and going into bluff catching mode where I will be overbetting maniacally.

Or do you want to argue that with AA + KK in your range, I know what you have too often, and you need to put worse hands in your range to not lose money.

(I'm not asking you for GTO strat. I'm just asking you for a basic outline of a strat where any hand OTHER than AA can be played profitably)

Isn't it impossible to play anything profitably against a GTO strategy? Isn't the best you can do against a perfectly balanced range break even? You said earlier that the button in your hypothetical is GTO, I'm assuming you mean pre and postflop. Doesn't the definition of GTO preclude us ever making money at any point with any hand?

No. You aren't a blind. You are in early position. There's no antes or anything, so you could obviously just always fold and break even. You don't have to lose even if I am playing GTO.

Of course you can show a profit by open shoving AA and playing no other hands.

NoahSD is saying that's not optimal, so he's implying you can play even more hands profitably. I'm asking him to come up with a basic strategy, not for perfect play, just to show that it's profitable to show a profit with any other hand.

I think it would be a very weird combination of 3bet/call/5bet ranges and postflop play from your opponent that would allow this to happen.

re-read my question. i'm not asking why check calling the turn is optimal vs check raising... i'm asking why we are check calling if we plan on folding the river as we did... you mention "having a plan" and that is along the lines of my question... if OPs plan to check call the flop and turn, was he thinking of check folding the river all along?

This thread is awesome. A sincere thanks to everyone who has contributed so far, especially ZJ.

would be pretty cool to know what zj had though

This is by far the best thread to grace the pages of HSMTT in quite some time.

We have a lot of equity against ZJ's range on the turn. Against made flushes we have 7 spades + 6 boat outs. The rivered ten is a card that completes a lot of the hands he would be bluffing with on the turn (J9, JQ, 69s), and our equity against his value range is now 0% instead of a non-zero number.

No.. I can't do that. Obviously any strategy other than push/fold is extremely hard to describe 100k BBs deep. That doesn't mean that the correct strategy is to push/fold, though.

ZJ, you keep talking about extreme situations (100K deep). I see the point you are making and I'm pretty sure you are right about this theory. But in this particular hand, we are 166BB deep, which isn't near extreme.

I still think that flatting is better than 4betting here but saying we should never 4bet OOP 166BB is absurd to me. So, if you are really sure about that, could you please elaborate a bit please?

That was my thinking too. If we want to fold AK here, ZJ has the greatest spot in the world to shove here.

just posting to say I often raise to find out where I am at.

lol

so your an idiot

Sliceman calling out mastrblastr ITT.

HU4Rollz challenge coming soon?

ZJ is just testing the water and his credibility the same time after his horrible reputation after all the cheating scandals and it seems to work fairly well. People are falling into the trap like there is no tomorrow.

I have never said that.

Posts like this are so frustrating

still seems pretty absurd

just noticed