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Mid-High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of mid-high stakes MTT strategy

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Old 03-15-2019, 08:21 AM   #1
wynner88888
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Final table, call or 4bet shove AKs pre?

5 players left. V has H covered. We can call/fold flop if we don’t complete and still be healthy, but V has a wider 3bet range than shove calling range (going on previous hands).

Would a call be better here? The fold equity was my only reason to shove, plus we’re likely flipping at worst if called.

Ruslan_91193: posts small blind 7000
kinoman.by: posts big blind 14000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to wynner88888 [Ah Kh]
wynner88888: raises 14000 to 28000
Erfunden13: folds
jurdie b252: folds
Ruslan_91193: raises 63000 to 91000
kinoman.by: folds
wynner88888: raises 423841 to 514841 and is all-in
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:22 AM   #2
wynner88888
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Re: Final table, call or 4bet shove AKs pre?

Our image is probably loose aggressive, but V has folded to previous 3bets and 4bet shoves.

Last edited by wynner88888; 03-15-2019 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:27 AM   #3
xamlop
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Re: Final table, call or 4bet shove AKs pre?

Unless someone has 5bbs seems pretty std.
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Old 03-16-2019, 03:27 AM   #4
wynner88888
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Re: Final table, call or 4bet shove AKs pre?

But assuming V has a calling range of AA, KK, QQ, JJ, maybe AK. TT, 99, AQ? Do we really want to be a slight dog for all our chips this deep?

All stacks are healthy.

I know it’s a pretty common spot and probably been discussed a million times, but I really question whether getting it all in with AK is wise? Would it not be wiser to call, see 60% of drawing cards and re-evaluate?

With fold equity on side, it may tip slightly toward a shove. But if the roles were reversed with H 3betting and V shoving, I may find it very difficult to call and gamble my tournament on a probable coin flip - especially with ICM.

AK, especially AKs, just seems too strong not play aggressively but I wonder if it’s wise when deepstacked, especially with ICM.

Last edited by wynner88888; 03-16-2019 at 03:37 AM.
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Old 03-16-2019, 03:36 AM   #5
wynner88888
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Re: Final table, call or 4bet shove AKs pre?

To be honest I luckboxed to get this spot and if I had won the hand then I probably wouldn’t be having this conversion, but how aggressively to play AK is a common problem for me in tournaments. I often play it for what it is - a drawing hand - and end up folding turn or river if my bluffs aren’t working and it looks like I’m behind.
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Old 03-17-2019, 12:10 AM   #6
persianpunisher
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Re: Final table, call or 4bet shove AKs pre?

You’re 5 handed 37bb deep with AK suited. This is beyond standard.
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Old 03-22-2019, 11:46 AM   #7
JayGeeCZ
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Re: Final table, call or 4bet shove AKs pre?

I don't think it is insta 4bet shove every time. I would consider ICM at first. If you consider so wide calling range, what would be than V 3-bet range from SB against UTG open?
If we consider - based on your estimation of calling range - 10% range for 3bet and something like 4% calling range, than he is folding arround 60%. And you have arround 45% equity against his calling range you proposed. If I made a right calculation, in long term you earn 4-5bb. According to ICM and quality of the players you may find better spots. Calling with AKs and 37bb preflop is the worst option. Either shove or fold.

By the way, this spot shows, that 30-40bb stack is not good for 3-bet (if V is not prepare to call your 4-bet shove).
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Old 03-22-2019, 01:39 PM   #8
fro_dude
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Re: Final table, call or 4bet shove AKs pre?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayGeeCZ View Post
Calling with AKs and 37bb preflop is the worst option. Either shove or fold.
Folding is unequivocally the worst option.
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Old 03-23-2019, 07:18 AM   #9
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Re: Final table, call or 4bet shove AKs pre?

Assuming the opponent is not unreasonably tight, if I flat here it's not with the intention of folding flop if I miss. AK is the best hand often and to fold I'd have to be confident villain outdrew me and I'm now reverse dominated, or he does something which makes me think he was already ahead. There are players who believe they are contractually obliged to 3b or fold their entire sb range so allowing them to do that, then pay an additional ante in the form of a range cbet is a reasonable play.

Sounds like you want to fold flop is you don't "complete" by hitting an A or K so always jam. Getting it in v QQ+ is a lesser 'mistake' than folding flop on 962.
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Old 03-28-2019, 11:49 AM   #10
JayGeeCZ
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Re: Final table, call or 4bet shove AKs pre?

wynner, could give us some icm details? or at least buy in a number of players?
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Old 04-03-2019, 11:39 AM   #11
fro_dude
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Re: Final table, call or 4bet shove AKs pre?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wynner88888 View Post
Would it not be wiser to call, see 60% of drawing cards and re-evaluate?
This is contradictory. With a "drawing" hand, you are best served to see all 5 cards. Shoving also prevents villain from getting away on flops that have A or K.

This is probably a spot for ICMizer if you have all the relevant stats...because it's likely close if there are short stacks.
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Old 04-03-2019, 09:16 PM   #12
tilted4lifemb
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Re: Final table, call or 4bet shove AKs pre?

In these spots I prefer to 4b to 235k or so over shoving... I have seen people tank and open fold JJ TT etc to 4bs where they are imo more inclined to call a shove.
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