Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Calling ranges vs. shoves late in WSOP #10 Calling ranges vs. shoves late in WSOP #10

06-05-2018 , 11:27 PM
Thanks for comments.

Re: open-raise sizing when antes are significant, my feeling is that 2bb is not enough to get any two cards to fold on the BB. In hand #1, with blinds at 1400/2800 (350), there is 7350 in the pot before any betting. A min. 2BB raise puts 5600 more in the pot making it 12900. If everyone folds to the SB, he must put 4200 into a 13K pot (3.1:1) and the BB must call only 2800 (4.6:1) so unless you are trying to only build the pot and induce calls by worse hands (which is fine), the 2BB raise is too small. I would rather fold out marginal hands with AJo, and if I have a stronger hand I'm fine folding out marginal hands while inducing calls only by stronger hands with tighter ranges, which are (usually) easier to play against post-flop. A call from BB after min. raise is impossible to narrow down at all. Reasonable minds may differ.

In an on-line event where the value of the pot is displayed, betting the full pot (SB+BB+antes) is just an easy way to make a raise that is slightly more than 2.5x while also presenting an odd-sized raise which sometimes confuses other players. With this bet size, the SB's call odds are 2.2:1, and the BB's odds are 2.8:1, so not as good pot odds for either to call with marginal hands. Of course, the raise size should be the same on all hands (premium, strong, and marginal) or I'm telegraphing the strength of my holding, so I choose to make the slightly higher bet size for all pre-flop openers, particularly in early position.

As for hands:

#1 -- I chose to fold. Villain's shoving range here with 15BB over my early-position raise seems to me pretty strong and without reads to suggest that he's a maniac I chose to find a better spot and protect my stack. I appreciate the feedback here on whether this was too tight.

#2 -- I called. I agree it's a must call since villain is open-shoving and not shoving over my raise so his 10BB range from the button here is very wide. Even though it's half my stack, I have to make this move. He turned up with 99 so it was a coin flip but I agree that it's always a call here.

Last edited by KevinGChapman; 06-05-2018 at 11:34 PM.
Calling ranges vs. shoves late in WSOP #10 Quote
06-06-2018 , 07:41 AM
Raising slightly bigger is fine when you presumably play tighter ranges. 2-2.2x open is better when opening more marginal hands. As bb gets better odds for a call, we get better odds for our steals.

The important thing to know here is that while bb has amazing odds to call with almost everything, he doesn’t get to realize his equity with all of those hands and thus should call slightly tighter than what the odds dictate. For example, bb has enough equity to call K2o vs even utg range when utg minopens but due to equity realization factor, he can’t call that wide.

Another thing to note is that we don’t mind bb calling oop with weak range and w/o initiative in the hand. He must (correctly) overfold flops due to such a wide calling range pre. There is no way around that since not folding flop enough makes for too weak ranges later in the hand for the defending player.
Calling ranges vs. shoves late in WSOP #10 Quote
06-08-2018 , 10:32 AM
Hand 1 is close to me. I don't see anybody shoving here for 15 blinds with AT or KQ. Whenever I call in these spots I'm shown AK/AQ or a PP.

You are getting roughly 3:2 so its just about break even. About half the time you are 30% to win and the other half about 45%.

I would base the decision on what the stereotypes of my image and villain's image are. As an OMC I would likely fold because my open will be perceived to be strongish. As a young internet guy with headphones, a hoodie, and sunglasses I would probably call.

Hand 2 is an auto call. Even if i am thinking about it my hands will put my chips in for me.
Calling ranges vs. shoves late in WSOP #10 Quote
06-08-2018 , 01:26 PM
I still think hand 2 is a call, but I understand what 2pairs is saying.

My interpretation: You are risking half your stack and are a usually going to be a small favorite. When you lose, you are now in shoving mode. It would be nice to avoid these high variance spots and play smaller pots.

But unfortunately this is tournament poker. You have to take these +cEV spots.
Calling ranges vs. shoves late in WSOP #10 Quote
06-08-2018 , 09:34 PM
Hand #2 is super standard unless we think villain is a mega-nit. When we're getting that much of an edge vs. opponent's likely range we have to take it.

Hand #1 is probably a call, but I can rationalize folds vs. certain player types.
Calling ranges vs. shoves late in WSOP #10 Quote
06-09-2018 , 01:41 AM
1st hand is close, but given standing and the length of the event, i'm inclined to fold as best case scenario here is probably a flip, and I want to maintain my stack to outplay opponents.

2nd hand is an automatic call due to range and stack considerations. We can be beat here, but unless the dude is a nit, his shove range here should be very wide.
Calling ranges vs. shoves late in WSOP #10 Quote
06-09-2018 , 03:41 PM
My thoughts about hand 1 (and many other hands on these boards) are definitely colored by the fact that I mostly play turbo's and 180's the last few years, and the live events around here are mostly 20 or 30 minute levels. So I'm used to making bets or calls motivated by the need to get on with it, and I often forget to consider the influence of slower structures. But I don't think that the average unknown player is over-shoving the pot only with the super-premium hands that dominate you. There are bound to be some flips for you and at least a few A-X, KQ etc that you are ahead of. So, despite the slower structure, I still advocate for the call with hand 1.
Calling ranges vs. shoves late in WSOP #10 Quote
06-14-2018 , 06:24 PM
Fold.

Call.

Open less.
Calling ranges vs. shoves late in WSOP #10 Quote

      
m