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Mid-High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of mid-high stakes MTT strategy

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Old 07-02-2020, 11:13 AM   #1
LiveMTTDegen
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Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

Are you ever calling a 2.5x bet with KK when you have less than 12 bigs against a bigger stack and 6 players left to act behind you?

Saw a player do this to me today when i open bet with AQo UTG and he calls and then the flop comes 9 4 2 and I decide to shove here and he calls with KK.

I would always shove pre with KK if i was in his position but he didn't so im wondering if that's good play? He seemed to talk alot about stragegy as well which i don't do either unless After the game I'm talking to someone and I give them a book if they are a beginner or something.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:52 AM   #2
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

Just shove. You will almost always get called and you get a good result if the raiser folds and you don't go to showdown.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:58 AM   #3
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

OMC will do this often as they refer to K-K as "Ace magnets"
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Old 07-02-2020, 02:57 PM   #4
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

Flatting KK is just horrible there. You might not get all the money in after calling and getting the raiser to call or fold are both good results. I don't think you should flat call with anything with that stack size except from the BB. With like 20xBB, you could flat call, as he would fold a lot to a shove and it would be hard to 3! smaller without it being obvious you had AA/KK. If you were a lot deeper, you could flat call at an active table hoping for a squeeze. There are lots of passive donks in live tournaments, like that player.

Last edited by deuceblocker; 07-02-2020 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 07-02-2020, 09:24 PM   #5
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

If you're going to have any flats here over 12BB I don't mind having AA-KK in our flatting range at some low frequency. If you're going to 100% shove/fold in this spot then obviously shove.
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Old 07-02-2020, 09:57 PM   #6
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

Flatting is completely fine and many times way better than shoving specially later in mtts when there’s icm /payjumps where people are opening wider ranges but calling off really tight (correctly so)
So you can peel and there’s really not many boards where you aren’t going to be printing, plus you end up getting ppl spazzing with what they think is the extra “dead” $ in the pot. They’ll see a5o and just go for it
This can be a gameflow thing too.
Also at under 20bb I open limp a bunch of these nutty hands and ppl end up spazzing hard af or playing utterly awful post flop bc they are in a node of the tree they have no idea wtf is going on.
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Old 07-03-2020, 03:59 AM   #7
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

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Flatting KK is just horrible there. You might not get all the money in after calling and getting the raiser to call or fold are both good results. I don't think you should flat call with anything with that stack size except from the BB. With like 20xBB, you could flat call, as he would fold a lot to a shove and it would be hard to 3! smaller without it being obvious you had AA/KK. If you were a lot deeper, you could flat call at an active table hoping for a squeeze. There are lots of passive donks in live tournaments, like that player.
this player seems to call alot rather than 3bet. actually the whole table seems to do so.

another player knocked me out in a different mtt had AKo utg and limped with that when he had 25bb. i shoved with KTs from mp with 9bb and the bb calls and utg calls again.

this sort of stuff you never see online.
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Old 07-03-2020, 04:39 AM   #8
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

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Flatting is completely fine and many times way better than shoving specially later in mtts when there’s icm /payjumps where people are opening wider ranges but calling off really tight (correctly so)
So you can peel and there’s really not many boards where you aren’t going to be printing, plus you end up getting ppl spazzing with what they think is the extra “dead” $ in the pot. They’ll see a5o and just go for it
This can be a gameflow thing too.
Also at under 20bb I open limp a bunch of these nutty hands and ppl end up spazzing hard af or playing utterly awful post flop bc they are in a node of the tree they have no idea wtf is going on.
wasn't close to the money.

Maybe he thought someone would 3 bet but nobody had been 3-betting anyways.

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If you're going to have any flats here over 12BB I don't mind having AA-KK in our flatting range at some low frequency. If you're going to 100% shove/fold in this spot then obviously shove.
If a ace hits on the flop are you really going to fold with 10 bigs in these fast stuctured live mtts? Suppose you could but i'd rather get it all in pre when we are only behind AA and hopefully double up.

We hadn't opened for awhile and are going to call with a hand like AQ or 77 against a shove from villian.
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Old 07-03-2020, 10:38 AM   #9
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

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this player seems to call alot rather than 3bet. actually the whole table seems to do so.

another player knocked me out in a different mtt had AKo utg and limped with that when he had 25bb. i shoved with KTs from mp with 9bb and the bb calls and utg calls again.

this sort of stuff you never see online.
Yes, passive play and not many 3-bets and lowish stakes live tournaments.

Limping AK UTG with 25xBB is actually a decent play, assuming you and the table have been limping.
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Old 07-03-2020, 02:35 PM   #10
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

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Yes, passive play and not many 3-bets and lowish stakes live tournaments.

Limping AK UTG with 25xBB is actually a decent play, assuming you and the table have been limping.
I would never do it. Whats the logic behind limping with AK? You don't want many players in the pot to start with. You want to put money in the pot since your hand is good. I don't like playing AK against 4 or 5 opponents I would rather play against 1 or 2. Maybe villian thinks someone will bet and he can raise.
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Old 07-03-2020, 02:39 PM   #11
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

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I would never do it. Whats the logic behind limping with AK? You don't want many players in the pot to start with. You want to put money in the pot since your hand is good. I don't like playing AK against 4 or 5 opponents I would rather play against 1 or 2. Maybe villian thinks someone will bet and he can raise.
Obviously, the logic is to shove over a raise. If you raise and get called, you may be in a tricky spot if you miss.
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Old 07-03-2020, 02:54 PM   #12
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

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Obviously, the logic is to shove over a raise. If you raise and get called, you may be in a tricky spot if you miss.
I would probably check oop if we miss and fold if i think we up against strength and we don't have flush draw. Looking at reads I might get it in on flop even if we miss looking to check raise against 1 opponent.

Come to think of it I have checked with AK AQ by raising pre and getting called and checking OOP on flop with top pair and having our villian shove on the flop with TT or AK when we have AQ with a Q on the flop. Did that play against the same opponent twice in two different mtts.

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Old 07-04-2020, 02:52 AM   #13
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

I brought up playing kings soft and was flamed a little bit.

It's a thing people do. Good players even! Try to maximize your hand. I think maximizing is probably reshoving as you described,
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Old 07-04-2020, 04:36 AM   #14
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

I can see flatting being the better option in certain situations, especially live where people probably don’t know exactly how many chips you have even if they know you’re short, and others aren’t paying attention to stack sizes at all. They’ll be shoving behind you with very marginal hands trying to steal.

Online that’s a lot more difficult since exact sizes are right in front of their faces.
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Old 07-04-2020, 08:10 AM   #15
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

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I brought up playing kings soft and was flamed a little bit.

It's a thing people do. Good players even! Try to maximize your hand. I think maximizing is probably reshoving as you described,
thats what he was trying to do. explained it after the hand that was the only way to get all the chips in.

i probably shouldn't of shoved flop as well.
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Old 07-04-2020, 02:41 PM   #16
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

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I can see flatting being the better option in certain situations, especially live where people probably donít know exactly how many chips you have even if they know youíre short, and others arenít paying attention to stack sizes at all. Theyíll be shoving behind you with very marginal hands trying to steal.

Online thatís a lot more difficult since exact sizes are right in front of their faces.
You get a perfectly fine result getting allin against one player with KK. I can't see how it can be good to flat call to induce action from players to act, even if they don't realize how short you are. You don't want over calls, and then 2 or 3 players can draw out on you but have only committed 1/5 of their stacks.

It is a passive donk play to flat. If an ace hits, the preflop raiser will probably represent it, and you should probably get allin anyway.
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Old 07-05-2020, 04:08 PM   #17
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

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You get a perfectly fine result getting allin against one player with KK. I can't see how it can be good to flat call to induce action from players to act, even if they don't realize how short you are. You don't want over calls, and then 2 or 3 players can draw out on you but have only committed 1/5 of their stacks.

It is a passive donk play to flat. If an ace hits, the preflop raiser will probably represent it, and you should probably get allin anyway.
i would have to agree with you on this one.
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Old 07-07-2020, 05:45 AM   #18
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

If you watch Doug Polk's videos, he advocates to never trap pre with KK. If you wanna do it once in awhile with AA then that is fine but just do not do it with KK. If there is an A on the flop then what are you gonna do? Get it in? You will be crushed vs Ax.
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Old 07-07-2020, 08:54 AM   #19
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

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If you watch Doug Polk's videos, he advocates to never trap pre with KK. If you wanna do it once in awhile with AA then that is fine but just do not do it with KK. If there is an A on the flop then what are you gonna do? Get it in? You will be crushed vs Ax.
Not at all in this case, but you can flat call a raise with KK and like 20-40xBB looking to jam over a squeeze. You can do that with AK too.
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Old 07-07-2020, 09:17 AM   #20
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

I am not sure if this line will be more profitable then simply 3betting for value. Or just not with KK. Do it with AA if you wanna do it at a low frequency. This is Doug's opinion and I like it coz it makes sense and it is logical.
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Old 07-07-2020, 03:56 PM   #21
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Re: Calling a 2.5x bet with KK in MP live?

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I am not sure if this line will be more profitable then simply 3betting for value. Or just not with KK. Do it with AA if you wanna do it at a low frequency. This is Doug's opinion and I like it coz it makes sense and it is logical.
I you are short, but not this short, then I agree AA is better to flat with than KK. If you can like 40xBB and are going to make a 4! shove with FE, then maybe QQ/KK/AK are good, and maybe some bluffs. With AA, you don't want people folding to your 4! shove.
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