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In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot

04-20-2021 , 11:45 PM
This was a live $200 buy-in tournament. $50K up top. Field is still around 100 players, nowhere close to the bubble.

We have been playing at this table for about 3 hours - the table has been relatively passive pre-flop with virtually no 3betting aside from one 40BB 3bet all in from the BB (not involving any of these villains).

Table is 7 handed.

Blinds are $1/2K with a $2K BB ante.

Villain 1 (UTG+2 / HJ) (30BB / $60K): Accomplished tournament grinder; he has a few big wins and a WSOP final table to his name. So far, has been pretty quiet on this table and only played a few hands. He has won every hand without showdown but does not seem to be getting out of line. He also stole my BB / BB ante on the last rotation (I called in a 3 way pot, x / folded after whiffing flop).

Villain 2 (CO) (27BB / $54K): Old Man Coffee. Has been open limping wide range, limp/calling etc. Has shown down some big made hands on river e.g. flopped straight with 76s.

Villain 3 (SB) (28BB / $56K): Youngish (early 20s) guy; seems competent but a bit inexperienced, has been active but not overly aggressive; he has not 3bet any hands so far in 3 hours of play.

Hero (BB) (50BB / $99K): Image is probably TAG, have been pretty active and won a few decent pots without showdown except one (showed down A8o on the BTN after checking back mid pair on river v BB defender).

Pre Flop (pot 5K): Hero has T T in BB.

UTG and UTG+1 fold.

Villain 1: open raises to $5K.

Villain 2: calls $5K.

BTN folds.

Villain 3: 3bets to $16K.

Hero: ?

My read is that Villain 3 has a super-premium range (JJ+, AKo, AKs). My problem here is that all 3 options seem bad:
  • Folding: seems way too nitty, even against Villain 3's premium range.
  • Calling: seems bad as we don't have odds to set mine, we have 2 more villains behind, and we won't like most flops.
  • Raising: cold 4bet jamming here also seems -EV against Villain 3's range (we have about 34% equity).

Thoughts?
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
04-21-2021 , 08:47 AM
Pretty easy fold given your read of the table and the generally population in these things. Plus there are 2 players still to act behind including an utg open. If sb had been aggro and 3betting a lot then it can be a shove.

TT only has 35% equity vs a range of TT+,AQs+,AKo.

Calling seems like the worst option tbh, putting in 1/4 of effective stack to setmine pre oop, especially when UTG can still have a strong hand too..
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
04-21-2021 , 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ledn
Pretty easy fold given your read of the table and the generally population in these things. Plus there are 2 players still to act behind including an utg open. If sb had been aggro and 3betting a lot then it can be a shove.

TT only has 35% equity vs a range of TT+,AQs+,AKo.

Calling seems like the worst option tbh, putting in 1/4 of effective stack to setmine pre oop, especially when UTG can still have a strong hand too..
Can we really assume a 20 something is so tight and linear preflop? Have they not heard of a squeeze?

If so, we do have an easy fold, since that range is never raise folding. Throw in a few semi bluffs like Axs and some small SC, then we can jam ourselves.
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
04-21-2021 , 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3for3poker
Can we really assume a 20 something is so tight and linear preflop? Have they not heard of a squeeze?

If so, we do have an easy fold, since that range is never raise folding. Throw in a few semi bluffs like Axs and some small SC, then we can jam ourselves.
I follow your logic and range analysis but you didn't mention the UTG open-raise still to act. Had it been a cut-off open and a button 3! then yeah, maybe but at these stacks our jam is still going to give 2:1 to UTG. Plus, a SB 3! shouldn't be too wide multi-way due to the positional disadvantage potential.

OP makes this table sound a tad soft and passive. I'm probably folding after some thought.
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
04-21-2021 , 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3for3poker
Can we really assume a 20 something is so tight and linear preflop? Have they not heard of a squeeze?

If so, we do have an easy fold, since that range is never raise folding. Throw in a few semi bluffs like Axs and some small SC, then we can jam ourselves.
0 3bets in 3hrs is relevant info.

Stack sizes are weird too. In villain's shoes I don't even think I have a 3bet/fold range. Because of the 2.5x open and flat, its hard to raise to a size that gets a fold without being pot committed. Even the small 3bet that villain made committed almost 1/3 of his stack.

In my experience this size of 3bet is a monster that doesn't want to shove 28bb or flat. Maybe its balanced by enough Axs hands but I doubt it.
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
04-21-2021 , 05:54 PM
Seems like a fold, would probably fold JJ too.
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
04-21-2021 , 07:57 PM
As ledn said you have no Fold Equity here. SB is never folding to a shove. It is possible SB has 77-99 but unlikely because his 3-bet leaves him very vulnerable when called. So we are flipping at best mostly.

Though not extremely likely, HJ can have QQ+/AK. I do think he would fold 55-99 and AJ but that leaves JJ and AQ. Those hands might get it in though they might be folded.

All in all a fold for me. Given the stack size we have JJ is likely a fold as well as MRSHpkin points out. It would take a read (or two) at the table to change my mind.

I get that UTG+2 and SB can both have AK and you win (mostly) but that won't happen a lot. I did it once but I was the shorter stack with 77 and both AK's called. Even then its like being up against two smaller pairs.
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
04-23-2021 , 06:38 AM
Clear fold. You have no fold equity against SB, so your allin will be called for sure. You are still early in the tournament so even if you are marginally CEV+ you dont want to play for your whole stack.
If your reads are correct a fold is even clearer: you are way behind against SBs range and there are still 2 players to act after you. I think SBs 3bet range is a bit wider than you assume but not really bluffy against a tight competent player who is opening from early. So maybe 99+, AQ+ and maybe A5s. Your equity is still just 45%. And the two players behind may wake up with a big hand.
Clear fold.
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
04-23-2021 , 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachman42
I follow your logic and range analysis but you didn't mention the UTG open-raise still to act. Had it been a cut-off open and a button 3! then yeah, maybe but at these stacks our jam is still going to give 2:1 to UTG. Plus, a SB 3! shouldn't be too wide multi-way due to the positional disadvantage potential.

OP makes this table sound a tad soft and passive. I'm probably folding after some thought.
Yes, and I am often the one to mention that fact. Still, the HJ open is more likely to fold than call, or call when we are behind. He'd have to be starting with a super tight open range for us to be in trouble with his range.

I do think everyone is underestimating the 20 something kid. He can see what hero sees; this has been a passive table where a squeeze will get some respect. Maybe he is JJ+, AK, and I am off my rocker. But, I'd love to be able to make his play with some Ax,Kx suited blocker type bluffs if TT (and JJ) are going to fold.

If the SB gets called, he'll just have a pot sized bet behind, so position won't matter as much as it would with deeper stacks...
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
04-24-2021 , 09:17 AM
Why do you hate folding so much if you put villain on Jj+ Ako?
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
04-25-2021 , 02:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGClayDol
Why do you hate folding so much if you put villain on Jj+ Ako?
I wish I could hate folding less in this spot. To be honest, I didn't give enough consideration to folding in-game. Seems like it should be an easy fold now in hindsight if I have him on that range.
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
04-25-2021 , 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ledn
If sb had been aggro and 3betting a lot then it can be a shove.
Agreed, I'm probably jamming this without too much thought against most online players.
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
04-25-2021 , 02:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3for3poker
Can we really assume a 20 something is so tight and linear preflop? Have they not heard of a squeeze?
Generally I would give a young player a wider range but this guy didn't seem to be the typical LAGgy, creative player. I kind of wish I had allowed for some lightish 3bets in his range as I could justify a jam then (spoiler alert: obvs I didn't jam).
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
04-25-2021 , 02:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ledn

In my experience this size of 3bet is a monster that doesn't want to shove 28bb or flat. Maybe its balanced by enough Axs hands but I doubt it.
This was my thought process exactly. His stack is roughly 11x the open raise; I assume most players would jam AK with this stack (also JJ), so his 3x is most likely AA, KK, QQ.
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
04-27-2021 , 09:25 PM
Fold. I see tons of players flatting then x/f post with 77-JJ in these spots and it’s a huge leak against nutted 3!
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
05-07-2021 , 05:24 PM
I just need to know how number of runners and pay table for a $200 tourney where there is $50,000 to first and yet 100 players aren't close to the money yet.
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
05-11-2021 , 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Aces 518
I just need to know how number of runners and pay table for a $200 tourney where there is $50,000 to first and yet 100 players aren't close to the money yet.
haha good point I never even thought about all that. Has to be a mistype somewhere in there. Possibly $50k total prize pool, not for 1st. That would be ~250 runners and so 100 left wouldnt be close to money yet.
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
05-22-2021 , 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Aces 518
I just need to know how number of runners and pay table for a $200 tourney where there is $50,000 to first and yet 100 players aren't close to the money yet.
It was a multi day event with multiple day 1 entries - there were 1,400 total day 1 entries including rebuys = prize pool of 280K.

This hand happened in a day 1 event with 100 players left on that day, but still nowhere near the money bubble.
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote
05-22-2021 , 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsilver
Fold. I see tons of players flatting then x/f post with 77-JJ in these spots and it’s a huge leak against nutted 3!
+1 wish I had learned lesson way earlier in my poker playing. Either fold or if you have an amazing read all in in the pot, then jam. Calling worst option.
In BB with TT facing 3bet in multiway pot Quote

      
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