Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - 125/250 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 30.27 BB (VPIP: 20.85, PFR: 14.59, 3Bet Preflop: 8.76, Hands: 520)
MP: 59.36 BB (VPIP: 34.86, PFR: 25.31, 3Bet Preflop: 14.93, Hands: 331)
MP+1: 17.86 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
MP+2: 23.09 BB (VPIP: 22.73, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 4.94, Hands: 177)
CO: 35.33 BB (VPIP: 37.25, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 4.17, Hands: 51)
BTN: 42.15 BB (VPIP: 32.00, PFR: 12.57, 3Bet Preflop: 3.21, Hands: 355)
Hero (SB): 46.73 BB
BB: 19.76 BB (VPIP: 14.86, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 4.17, Hands: 75)
UTG: 10.53 BB (VPIP: 28.95, PFR: 9.21, 3Bet Preflop: 2.56, Hands: 76)

9 players post ante of 0.12 BB, Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.58 BB) Hero has 9 9

fold, fold, MP raises to 2.28 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 7.26 BB, fold, MP calls 4.98 BB

Flop: (16.6 BB, 2 players) 8 T 5
Hero bets 4.15 BB, MP calls 4.15 BB

Turn: (24.9 BB, 2 players) 4
Hero checks, MP bets 8.2 BB, Hero calls 8.2 BB

River: (41.3 BB, 2 players) 3
Hero checks, MP bets 39.63 BB and is all-in, fold

MP wins 41.3 BB

V is a very well knows HS reg with sick results (this is only a $109, though).

He's been accused of being a bot. I highly doubt it, though.

TBH I'm not sure how he manages to pull it off consistently because he often gets way OOL. For example:

-I've seen him squeeze non-all in OTB (his 3b% from that seat is 26%!) with {Q3s}
-I've seen him open/call OTB vs a 4x 3b w/ {K3s} and float vs a huge cbet on [4J6] with a BDFD (he turned the FD, overjammed turn, got snapped and binked the backdoor OBV).
-He opens 23% from EP, often sizing his opens from all positions (IMO suboptimally) large--pretty LAGGRO stuff.

We have a little history, mostly him making me fold because I'm consistently at the bottom of my range (Aha! That's how he does it!). Not sure if he remembers the one hand where he 3x pot jammed the river with a flush against my capped range, but I do (hero trivially folded and V severely valuecut himself that hand). Nor am I sure if he remembers this other hand where he cold 4b me from the SB and getting me to fold pre with {KJs} when I had light 3b an EP opener (hero obv didn't show, but getting someone to fold after 3b vs an EP open should be a fairly significant piece of data IMO).

So even though he's got some leaks IMO he's very tough to play against and a very good poker player.

I think there's possibly room for improvement on all streets:

Pre: Prob should be going 4x pre

Flop: Pretty sure this is the right sizing for my range on such a dry texture. I'm not 3betting a linear range outside of {77/88+, AQs+, AKo} (i.e. I'll have KTs, and QJs, and some mixed combos of what can prob be considered by most to be "air" as well so I should arrive OTF with more "air" than most, none of which wants to go very large and futhermore his range should be pretty weak given how wide he's likely flatting pre and my fat value doesn't wanna go too large in that case either so b25% seems right but not sure. I can def be convinced to go b50%.

On a side note, what's the best way to attack guys like this with 3b's? Let mr be clear: he doesn't scare me one bit and I have no qualms 3betting like {K8s} vs him if he's gonna float me with {K3s} or whatever but is it best vs this kind of player to just reign it in with 3bs? I've tested this spot with two different ranges:

3b Range 1: non-linear




I understand if this range makes me look as ******ed as V can look, but the thing is if he's open/calling as wide as I think then some of these hands are technically thin value, and furthermore we're going arrive in this preflop spot with a full range, can we really just be content with folding all these potentially good light 3bs and yielding our .5bb almost always?

What's a flatting range look like here? Is the answer "flat nothing"?

Range 2: linear



A more traditional 3b range. Pretty sure these hands are all slamdunk 3bs but the only think I'm sure of is I'm actually not sure of anything anymore.

Turn: Seems like a pretty ****ty card for my range and a high-freq check spot for me, allowing V to bluff his floats and setting up potential x/r with overpairs, sets, FDs etc. but also giving me the option to set traps with my least vulnerable hands which also gives the 99, etc portion of my range the cushion it needs since I doubt 99 can be considered any more than a nice bluffcatcher OTT and on many rivers. Think we can argue for x/r occasionally with 99 for protection. Feel like most of my range here is still in the vicinity of A-high or worse thus the high freq check strat.

River. Seems like a toss up, V undoubtedly arrives at river with flushes and I do think he can go for thin value with Tx but he can certainly be bluffing (Ax that floated, Q9, QJ, J8, J9, and 76 all come to mind as natural bluffs for V) and furthermore hero should have flushes or his own not to mention overpairs so...toss up?

Actually really tempted to call because we have a blocker and **** this guy but was folding prudent?

Don't have time to think deeply about this right now but without knowing his 4b freq, seems like a fold as I can't come up with many logical bluffs he has (so many have a 9).

As a side note, I don't think it can be a terrible call against a player you know can get OOL vs your range which doesn't include many hands you should be able to call with (especially if he has the Ah or Kh in his hand), so in a $109 it may be worth calling off to 1) have a chance to win the pot, 2) get this V which you play with quite a bit as it sounds to show you another hand and line he took.

Thx. You play on ACR, you've almost certainly played against this guy.

I've actually only seen him 4b once, but it was OOP in a bigger 6-max event. He ended up 1.5x jamming flop on [J78]r, which I have no idea if that's OK in a 4b pot at equilibrium.

Can't say I remembered that at the time, I just looked it up in my database.

At this point you just gotta drop the screen name. Stop holding out on us!

CreateMyOwnEnergy

I had exactly the same thoughts as you btw. I think the blocker situation is a two-headed beast though since we block flushed (good) but block 9x (bad)

lol...pretty good description of villain's play/tendencies...i figured it out when you mentioned the oversized opens.

Any reads on BB? If he's not aggro then you can probably just flat. Imo vs guys like this you rally want hands that play well post when you're playing around 50bbs. OOP my 3bet range is pretty tight vs MP.

As played if your gonna Cbet then you should try to make it a 2-street game with a 2.4 to 1 SPR. You are ahead of his range and you need a lot of protection, so I like to Check most of the time and Bet 60% (leaving 80% pot back) sometimes.

If you're barreling turn with all of your Tx+ then you're probably overfolding otr if you let this combo go (would have to look at it.) You're gonna have to call ~50% of your turn c/c range otr.

I have played vs this person and I think the general consesus is that he is a bot.. although he is not in the list of banned accounts which is weird.. but yes tread very carefully alot of noteable people have called him out.

Flat pre camp.. we still want to have some strong hands in our flatting range from this seat and keep V range as wide as possbile going to the flop and I think he has less r/f overall when opening EPish which means we have to navigate oop in inflated 3b pot more often.

^^Thx.

BB is a huge nit over 75 hands.

I've done some work on optimal SB flatting ranges but admittedly likely not enough

In the work I've done trying to estimate optimal preflop range splitting I seem to recall 99 generally being unilaterally higher EV as a 3b almost always but TBF a lot of that work was IP not OOP. That dynamic, along with having an extra .5bb invested, will change things. Furthermore, I understand the BB and particular a BB player with this stack size changes things further--we don't want too many if any 3b/folds. So how does it all come together in this spot when we build our 3b anf flatting ranges--anyone wann give a stab at estimating the equiilibria?

I'll have to look through my notes and I'm gonna run this spot in PIO to try and estimate. This guy/bot whatever seems far from optimal but I think we can get a decent idea.

I wanna have a further discussion on preflop. Are we just going straightforward and linear here? IDK, I can get behind going only {TT+, AQs+, AKo} or something similar but that range is very narrow and I wonder if we're leaving EV on the table by not going at least just a bit wider. I feel that hands like KTs or QJs, at least as a mix, are solid 3bs--perhaps even moreso than 99, but 99 in particular I just feel are simply too strong not to reraise. Though I can def be convinced otherwise, and I'm well on my way towards having that be the case after reading your posts.

What do your preflop ranges look like in this spot?

Presumably if you're flatting 99 it's because you think that's the unilaterally higher EV move. Or is the consideration that our flatting range needs more of cushion lest we get run over when we flat?

I definitely struggle with SB in particular I think outside of totally solvable scenarios (basically BvB spots).

FWIW as of this hand V has actually folded 4/5 times to 3bs after EP opens and 3/5 times from MP (10/15 overall, despite the HH I alluded to in the OP he does have a fold button vs 3bets which I guess is a necessity when you open as wide as he does) and I was aware of these stats at the time of the hand. Should've included this info in the OP.

Regarding the bot question--do you know what criteria people would be using to make that determination? The bots I do know of are pretty much all Russian, Belarusian, and Latvian, this guy is ostensibly American (at least that's what I've heard) and while that's not dispositive of anything, his stat profile is unlike any bot I've ever seen as is his playing style. As are his results--his Sharkscope used to be active (not anymore though, a recent development--suspicious?) and his graph IIRC was like a 45-degree line straight up.

bet 2/3 pot turn.
flop is fine.
pre is fine.
river i bet 1/2 pot

Pretty much this.

If we know him to get ool at a high frequency, why not opt for a more standard strategy even oop and keep some strong hands in our sb flatting range. It is not like we hold the nuts preflop. We are still pretty vulnerable. And as sooooted noted, that type of profile won't r/f a lot EP. That is why, flatting allow us to keep strong hands (just like said before) in our sb flatting range while not inflating the pot vs a very versatile V. That gives us more room to manoeuver post w/ a still pretty decent and playable stack.

I just think he gets to the turn with too much air, he doesn't need much equity to start blasting in such a range favourable spot (who's got time to wait for , 9x when most heroes are capped and/or done), we got a relatively v good runout, and we have a pseudo-blocker which if nothing else can help regulate frequencies. I snap.

Kinda hate donking with a bet that gives villain 4:1 unless there's a plan I'm missing that involves this? Turn c/c also confuses me. Seems too weak/passive barring a very specific read.

Thx (and thx to bearer too).

It's actually not a donk bet it's a cbet.

We need to check something OTT to protect the air we arrive at turn with since I highly doubt we can barrel with range. I'll post my PIO runs in bit when I get back to my computer, I forgot what our turn strat looks like exactly but I wanna guess we're checking somewhat merged since both us AND V arrive at T fairly merged (if thats the case my guess is we need to check relatively equal amounts of air and value taken from across the value specturm--meaning AA or say 99 make for good checks at some frequency but IDK for sure I'll have to study some more)

Though of true, think this logic implies we barrel 99 also with some frequency

What's your turn checking range look like and why those combos and not others?

TBH I'm not sure since I rarely if ever 3 bet OOP from the blinds and then lead weak like this (conceded, not a donk but a cbet) OTF. You'll get a fold 0.0% of the time and instead you're bloating a pot OOP with a vulnerable-but-good hand that will almost surely get worse on future streets.

I much prefer a cbet OTF that is more substantial, especially given stacks. Gives you fold equity and allows you to protect your hand. Would take a pretty bold bluff by villain to reraise all in if you size your bet right, and even then you might read it right and make a good call/fold.

Yah RE flatting 99 I'm not sure if it's higher EV (than 3betting) but I would assume it's not OOP (not closing the action.)

My range in the SB vs. UTG to LJ opens with ~50bbs is pretty nitty. In general, my preference would be to play close to a 3bet/fold strat from the SB but in MTTs you give away too much equity in spots where the BB is weak (and let's you realize at least some of your equity by not squeezing anywhere near the optimal freq.)

I think hands that are towards the bottom of the value portion (of a polarized 3bet range) can be begrudgingly used as flats when the BB is weak. A hand like AJs could be an example.

One thing that I think is very important vs villains like this (I'll have to check my PT4 to see if I have any 3bet spots vs him) is that the bluff portion of your 3bet range is exclusively comprised of hands that are very playable postflop.

Using the sizing as played (def prefer bigger tho) you can have ~33% bluffs along with the 50 combos of your value range (AQs+;AK; TT-AA.) I only like SCs (no gappers) and I prefer to slide down to have some board coverage on lower flops. Something like this:



Obv if you use the bigger (4-4.5x) sizing then you can have more bluffs.

Play live
The bots are easier to spot

^^good stuff erc

Nah. Too many old, crotchety Abe Simpson types.

Haven't simmed it but given description I assume V is going to be floating correctly ip vs a 1/4 otf and will have enough bluffs once we x turn that we should be calling, esp 99hx.

let me tell you about the time i made the final table without ever going all in

teach you young-uns a thing or two

Having now simmed it with 3 different 3b ranges, it depends.

If we're super narrow like the one ERC suggests (adding 3 combos of 99 just to have them in the range), even the 9h9x combos are mixed OTR (that's without any node locking for V's tendencies).

If wider, then the 9h9x combos are calls and we fold the ones unblocking hearts.

Yeah, I just think as described (very wide ranges) villain will peel too wide pre and float wide otf, prob atc with bdfd/bdsd. Blocking the value portion of those floats I would lean call and get super upset when he rolls over A2cc.