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WCOOP early on WCOOP early on

09-10-2018 , 05:42 PM
On the 30 hands I had on the guy he was tight and had shown no aggression at all, up until this..

[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $9.80 Buy-in (300/600 blinds, 75 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37936647

MP2: 23,156 (38.6 bb)
MP3: 41,657 (69.4 bb)
CO: 25,000 (41.7 bb)
Hero (BTN): 28,041 (46.7 bb)
SB: 22,040 (36.7 bb)
BB: 23,267 (38.8 bb)
UTG+1: 24,443 (40.7 bb)
UTG+2: 24,880 (41.5 bb)
MP1: 32,267 (53.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 5 5
UTG+1 raises to 1,200, 5 folds, Hero calls 1,200, SB folds, BB calls 600

Flop: (4,575) 6 T 5 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

Turn: (4,575) Q (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets 2,540, Hero raises to 6,050, BB raises to 21,992 and is all-in,
WCOOP early on Quote
09-10-2018 , 06:26 PM
why r u checking back flop? Our hand is super strong here and needs to extract some value. BET FLOP!

On turn I'd fold. Can't see him having any worse hands here with this action.
WCOOP early on Quote
09-10-2018 , 06:35 PM
Yeah my plan was to trap but maybe I was getting too cute and was afraid they would just both fold to a bet, damn might have missed it there..
WCOOP early on Quote
09-10-2018 , 06:52 PM
Why are you checking back this flop? You should be betting anywhere from 1/2-2/3 pot on this flop (you could size down to 1/3 if the board was drier). You need to bet this flop to get value from middling hands and to charge draws, especially with a board this wet, especially one that smashes BB's range. As played I think you need to beef up your turn sizing to around 7.5-8k to charge draws more and build a bigger pot against worse value. This sizing also makes for a nice rivershove. Once BB shoves it's pretty ****ty but I'm pretty sure we can't fold. We need ~31% equity on a call and we probably aren't going to ever be too far ahead of that vs bb 4-bet range here. However, BB can still find some bluffs and maybe worse value (hard to say what worse value he 4 bet shoves other than maybe a QxTd. Still, we are ahead from some bluffs bb can have, specifically offsuit Broadway combos (KdJx, Jd9x, AdJx, Kd9x, etc). This really feels like a spot where we are mainly beat, but we can't really fold, simply because when we are beat we can improve on board pairing rivers, our opponent can still bluff, we are likely priced in on a call vs. his range. I did a quick range construction and gave villain 4 flushes for every 1 semibluff (AdJx, KdJx, Kd9x) just to see a quick run down of the equity and versus that range we have 32% going to a river. Hard to say how frequently the pop will 4 bet bluff esp facing bet and 3 bet, but it's pretty close.

Spot seems pretty breakeven to me, but I think we might have to call. Deeper in a tournament this might take a little more analysis and thought, but early on, especially in a field of WCOOP size I think you need to take every little edge to build a big stack to navigate the middle and later stages.
WCOOP early on Quote
09-10-2018 , 07:11 PM
^ LOL

Big blind is never ever bluffing here (with reads on villain as being tight), this is at $11 level not $1000. This is a flush
WCOOP early on Quote
09-10-2018 , 07:41 PM
BB is never bluffing here unless he's super crazy. That being said I don't think it would be a bad spot to bluff with just the naked A Every other bluffing hand would be super terrible and bad.
WCOOP early on Quote
09-10-2018 , 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin_Piddle
^ LOL

Big blind is never ever bluffing here (with reads on villain as being tight), this is at $11 level not $1000. This is a flush
Alright piddly diddly, you can't tell **** all about an opponent you have 30 hands on - All our hero said was that he hadn't seen any aggression - Wow, 3 orbits and the dude was tight, I wonder if he just didn't get dealt hands. If you're discounting the ability for a microstakes player to find a bluff then you're just underestimating the player pool. I can tell you for sure that you will find some ****ing crazily constructed bluffs especially in the small stakes field - these bluffs sometimes make sense, but often times don't. It seems really hard to give vill bluffs, but I think we can at least find something.

second note, if we perceive this spot to be underbluffed, then why aren't we ourselves bluffing it more? But who knows maybe 'ole colin piddle is going ham on his river 4-bet bluffs and is just ahead of the game

third note, replying "LOL" to someones breakdown of something doesn't encourage the growth of poker strat talk.

Last edited by underdeveloped; 09-10-2018 at 08:01 PM.
WCOOP early on Quote
09-10-2018 , 10:01 PM
Flop check is really bad on this board texture obv, on the wet board we really dont want to give any draws the chance to improve for free, we are spewing when we let his gutty get there ott etc.

As mistakes are made on early streets discussing as played is a fairly moot point because we should not be ever getting into this situation like this. That said 'never' is a really strong word in poker and its dangerous to think that all players think about poker in the same way we do, some people plain and simple just do dumb sht, esp at microstakes. Some people just dont care about the money and are fun players that just want to gamble. For the most part bb is going to have a nutted range but I would not be suprised to see some KJ, AJ diamonds in there, even a QTd or AdQx for that reason folding and calling turn are both fine depending on your style
WCOOP early on Quote
09-10-2018 , 11:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wowsooooted
Flop check is really bad on this board texture obv, on the wet board we really dont want to give any draws the chance to improve for free, we are spewing when we let his gutty get there ott etc.

As mistakes are made on early streets discussing as played is a fairly moot point because we should not be ever getting into this situation like this. That said 'never' is a really strong word in poker and its dangerous to think that all players think about poker in the same way we do, some people plain and simple just do dumb sht, esp at microstakes. Some people just dont care about the money and are fun players that just want to gamble. For the most part bb is going to have a nutted range but I would not be suprised to see some KJ, AJ diamonds in there, even a QTd or AdQx for that reason folding and calling turn are both fine depending on your style
Strongly disagree that just because a mistake was made earlier in the hand we shouldn't analyze the hand for how it is played out. In fact, I think it only improves our reasoning and analysis. This particular instance let us evaluate an interesting turn and bring up some good points.
WCOOP early on Quote
09-11-2018 , 04:09 AM
Do this again a goofball like me. I will start potting and overbetting blank run outs when ip checks back on wet, dynamic boards because you are badly capped.

Unless you have reason to believe he will respond like that you don't gain enough for the deception given the costs. Deception is a means to an end in this game.
WCOOP early on Quote
09-11-2018 , 05:40 AM
As played, I dont like the turn raise with the 86th nuts. You checked back flop with a plan to induce bluffs, so let him barrel off. If he draws out it's fine, you know what cards are bad for you and you can fold (diamonds).

He could conceivably be bluff 3bet jamming because you're not supposed to have many flushes after you check back flop while he's allowed to have been going for a check raise with his flush draws, but in the real world #TheyAlwaysHaveIt
WCOOP early on Quote
09-11-2018 , 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bearer
As played, I dont like the turn raise with the 86th nuts. You checked back flop with a plan to induce bluffs, so let him barrel off. If he draws out it's fine, you know what cards are bad for you and you can fold (diamonds).

He could conceivably be bluff 3bet jamming because you're not supposed to have many flushes after you check back flop while he's allowed to have been going for a check raise with his flush draws, but in the real world #TheyAlwaysHaveIt
This. Just call the turn bet. If we raise and he jams it's a disaster.
WCOOP early on Quote
09-11-2018 , 08:03 AM
^

I strongly disagree with just flatting turn bet. Seems like some results oriented thinking to me. This board is way to wet to let utg1 see a river for just his half pot delayed cbet. We have to charge all his draws - and he will have a lot of them on this turn and all his weaker value hands - he will also have a lot of them on this turn. Why on earth would we just flat this turn bet and also invite the bb to draw to a super cheap river.
WCOOP early on Quote
09-11-2018 , 10:16 AM
I mis-read the action tbh, thought it was a 3bet jam from EP.

Still don't like the raise 3way but it's close. They can basically fold Qx 3way and that's the best value target (i.e. thats the hand we crush and want putting money in). The more Qx that continues, the better.

An opponent holding AJ is likely to fold to a raise but would often bluff river (if there is any merit to the flop check back) so we gain more there and lose less against flushes.
WCOOP early on Quote
09-14-2018 , 09:13 AM
I wouldn´t trap on a draw-heavy flop against 2 Villains. You gave Villains a free card to complete their draw. Now I´m afraid we must fold.
WCOOP early on Quote
09-14-2018 , 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by underdeveloped
^Why on earth would we just flat this turn bet and also invite the bb to draw to a super cheap river.


Because we COULD be behind, far behind. We have a strong hand but it isn't a "slam dunk" yet, we could be behind many flushes and even some sets if utg raiser got cute oop and is now overplaying a set of 66, TT.

We just flat the turn bet in position to avoid making a very difficult decision, (like calling a shove on a third flush card after we raise).

This can also make our decisions a little easier on the river.
WCOOP early on Quote
09-14-2018 , 12:59 PM
Oh forgot to add;
I would bet flop ip, I'd only check if original raiser acted last. Call turn bet, evaluate river.
As played, probably a fold.
WCOOP early on Quote

      
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