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Mid-High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of mid-high stakes MTT strategy

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Old 08-28-2018, 11:52 AM   #1
Darth_Maul
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22bb on BTN - ranges

Hi folks, I posted this hand in the SSMTT forum but I was hoping for some input on the theoretical aspect from some more experienced players.

13 people left.

888 Poker - 4500/9000 Ante 1125 NL - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 336,801 (VPIP: 28.17, PFR: 5.71, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 72)
CO: 90,250 (VPIP: 10.53, PFR: 11.43, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 38)
Hero (BTN): 194,133
SB: 436,329 (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 8.82, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
BB: 178,226 (VPIP: 27.38, PFR: 13.25, 3Bet Preflop: 3.33, Hands: 88)
UTG: 175,802 (VPIP: 20.83, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)

6 players post ante of 0, SB posts SB 4,500, BB posts BB 9,000

Pre Flop: (pot: 20,250) Hero has Q K

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 193,008 and is all-in

The theoretical question is this: What hands should be in my open-shove, raise/call, and raise/fold ranges in a spot like this? And how does one decide what hands go in each category?

Thanks.
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:07 AM   #2
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Re: 22bb on BTN - ranges

No input?
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Old 08-29-2018, 10:26 AM   #3
poloplaya1414
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Re: 22bb on BTN - ranges

Top X% of hands: Raise/call
Some next X% of hands: Shove
Some next X% of hands: Raise/fold

Where you draw the line depends on player tendencies. KQo might be just good enough to go in the raise/call category, but don't hate a shove either.
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:30 PM   #4
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Re: 22bb on BTN - ranges

Quote:
Originally Posted by poloplaya1414 View Post
Top X% of hands: Raise/call
Some next X% of hands: Shove
Some next X% of hands: Raise/fold

Where you draw the line depends on player tendencies. KQo might be just good enough to go in the raise/call category, but don't hate a shove either.
I guess that's pretty easy to determine at the extremes but the hands in the middle become difficult to classify. For example, A3 ranks better than KQ but where would you put it? Or 44? This is all assuming BB would shove a reasonable range there (say 22+/Ax/KJ+/KTs+/QJs+).

A hand like 44 stacks up decently against that range, so I think I would rather raise/call with it to entice a shove from hands that would fold to a shove. But I don't really want to entice a shove with KQ do I? That would imply I should open shove KQ. Seems like A3 type hands could be raise/fold or shove depending on how tight we expect villain to call. Does that make sense?
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Old 08-29-2018, 08:54 PM   #5
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Re: 22bb on BTN - ranges

Sure things are not linear. Usually if a hand is strong enough to raise/call you should do that. If not, you have to decide between jam and raise/fold and there are cases as you mention where it’s not obvious what’s “better”.

KQ has more robust equity than 44. 44 has just as much equity, maybe more against any 2, but KQ is less likely to be dominated and more likely to dominate other hands, which is why it makes a better raise/call candidate. If Villain will 3bet jam hands like QJ and KJ (which he really should be doing). KQ becomes a very good raise/call hand.

44 is not very playable and doesn’t do very well when you Villain flats, so it is a much better jam candidate.

A3 is not really strong enough to raise/call or jam at 22 BBs, but having a good blocker makes it a very good raise/fold candidate.
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Old 08-30-2018, 08:17 AM   #6
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Re: 22bb on BTN - ranges

Quote:
Originally Posted by poloplaya1414 View Post
KQ has more robust equity than 44. 44 has just as much equity, maybe more against any 2, but KQ is less likely to be dominated and more likely to dominate other hands, which is why it makes a better raise/call candidate. If Villain will 3bet jam hands like QJ and KJ (which he really should be doing). KQ becomes a very good raise/call hand.
But is this not offset by the times villain jams hands like small pairs that he might fold to an open-shove? If I have KQ I don't really want to get it in against 33-66.

Quote:
44 is not very playable and doesn’t do very well when you Villain flats, so it is a much better jam candidate.

A3 is not really strong enough to raise/call or jam at 22 BBs, but having a good blocker makes it a very good raise/fold candidate.
This makes sense.
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Old 08-30-2018, 10:33 AM   #7
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Re: 22bb on BTN - ranges

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Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
But is this not offset by the times villain jams hands like small pairs that he might fold to an open-shove? If I have KQ I don't really want to get it in against 33-66.
We're relatively indifferent to those cases. Sure we'd rather get folds, and we make a bit more money when they do. But you make way more money inducing jams from QJ/KJ.

Basically, when you can induce jams from worse hands than better hands, you should probably raise/call.
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Old 08-30-2018, 11:36 AM   #8
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Re: 22bb on BTN - ranges

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Originally Posted by poloplaya1414 View Post
We're relatively indifferent to those cases. Sure we'd rather get folds, and we make a bit more money when they do. But you make way more money inducing jams from QJ/KJ.

Basically, when you can induce jams from worse hands than better hands, you should probably raise/call.
Thanks, appreciate the input.
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Old 08-31-2018, 11:04 AM   #9
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Re: 22bb on BTN - ranges

Quote:
Originally Posted by poloplaya1414 View Post
Top X% of hands: Raise/call
Some next X% of hands: Shove
Some next X% of hands: Raise/fold

Where you draw the line depends on player tendencies. KQo might be just good enough to go in the raise/call category, but don't hate a shove either.
Never raise "fist pump" calling w/ KQo >20bb pre
In that precise spot (it is indeed very player dependant here) i d rather open jam as we can make some low Ax fold and as we can prevent V in sb or bb to 3b jam wide which would put us in that shtty spot (having to call an all in w/ K high)
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