Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - 1200/2400 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

SB: 62.37 BB (VPIP: 27.06, PFR: 20.42, 3Bet Preflop: 9.55, Hands: 441)
BB: 18.03 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 40)
Hero (UTG): 59.92 BB
UTG+1: 9.52 BB (VPIP: 16.23, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 4.82, Hands: 191)
MP: 9.07 BB (VPIP: 23.58, PFR: 15.96, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 107)
MP+1: 28.3 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 12)
CO: 87.06 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
BTN: 38.31 BB (VPIP: 41.67, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)

8 players post ante of 0.13 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has Ah Jh
Hero raises to 2 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN calls 2 BB, fold, fold

Flop : (6.5 BB, 2 players) 5d 6d 2d
Hero bets 1 BB, BTN calls 1 BB

Turn : (8.5 BB, 2 players) 6c
Hero bets 1 BB, BTN raises to 2 BB, Hero calls 1 BB

River : (12.5 BB, 2 players) 3s
Hero checks, BTN bets 4.17 BB, Hero calls 4.17 BB

Flop is basically just a range cbet, it's a fairly range neutral spot even against what I perceive to be a very, very wide range but we just have too many decently high-equity hands (almost every combo in my range has at least 20-25% equity) that wanna bet and furthermore V is gonna have a lot of air we can attack (his range being mostly handcuffed by virtue of having no spade) such that we can package all our air and value into one neat little bundle OTF and just bet everything for 1bb.

The key thing surrounding my decision-making process in this hand is V is supposed to find some (~12%) flop folds in mixed fashion with like T-high, J-high, through K-high but I think in practice fishy V's (which V is shaping up to be) don't fold even that often, if ever (which makes b1bb even better exploitatively) meaning I think V arrives at turn suboptimally weak.

Which I think makes barreling 1bb good too since he's probably to some degree still gonna float pretty wide and with worse hands and furthermore if we can induce some spew via a too-small raise then even better for us.

River is kinda tough, would obv prefer him to xb, but since he arrives at turn exploitably weak this means he has too many air combos which also means he has too many potential spewy bluff combos and if he's spewing OTT he can certainly be spewing OTR which I do think means he's also super exploitably weak OTR which I do think makes this a pretty high EV exploitative bluffcatcher, but what do you think?

Is one bb bets a standard on line move?

I often do this live and people find it confusing.

And, when called, is a 1 BB turn bet after being called somewhat standard?

I live in PA, waiting, waiting, waiting, to post some on line hands, stupid PA.

And, is the 1 BB raise on turn standard?

Sizing, for a live player seems weird to me.

Lead flop for minimum, sure. Called, okay, up the sizing, you don't then he makes min raise. Confused about what you have and what he is representing.

I guess the thing with 1bb is that its basically the same a check no? It doesn't serve to give you further info/narrow V range moving forward in the hand. I think compared to other alternate lines it lacks purpose for what we may be trying to achieve (maximise when we ahead and minimise when behind)

Also its very hard to balance with value range like do you do the same w 77-AA? Is it an optimal size with these value hands to wideish percieved btn range? (proly not). This could leave your bet lacking value combos and become air heavy, which good players can easily pounce on.

People feel embrassed folding to 1bb, they think there ego gets hurt folding to such a small bet so they will play back at you just on principle and when we don;t have much value combos with this sizing (maybe you do?) we are just asking to get out played, esp when we dont have position.

Then again if there is some meta game wizardary going on then all power to you, you seem to know what your doing at this game so im not the one to flame a new 'ahead of curve' way of thinking.. the game is always changing and getting new strats gotta happen if you want to win. I just think personally the 1bb thing doesn't pass the 'pub test'

I think my default line here would be to cb flop at 33% because I can do this with all my value too like overpairs just as much as air then x/c turn and hope for a river x down. Our utg range should be strong enough to have enough calls otr etc like 77 - 99

IDK what the "pub test" is but 1bb with range is confirmed optimal sizing in this spot so it certainly passed the "tongue test" whereby I stick my tongue out and make a funny face at V as I cooly flick in my 1bb and he can't really do much about it in terms of exploiting me.

We have too many medium- to high-equity hands on this texture, what's paramount on this texture is equity realization and we do that most efficiently by cbetting range for 1bb. Furthermore, you're right when you say we don't have a lot of value combos here, but that needs the qualifier of "fat value" and it's not because of sizing it's just a matter of combinatorics--we don't have a lot of flushes in our range, it's hard to make a flush. We do however have a vast swath of overpairs, sets, and even our naked 2-over combos generally have ~20% equity or so, we definitely have a ton of value, just not much that actually wants to go more than 1bb, and even flushes are fine going so small because flushes heavily block worse-that'll-call namely worse flushes and flush draws. So you can not split your range any other way on this texture without becoming exploitable.


We can then barrel turn merged for 1bb so balancing this sizing is actually trivial. We have no need really to ever bet more than 1bb on either flop or turn. We're just not gonna extract much value on this texture, it's just a combinatoric fact, and for the same reason our air needn't go big either. Whether V likes it or not, kicking and screaming he's gonna have to find folds somewhere or he's getting owned, and in the process we've extracted the max with our value (don't turn your nose at at 2bb--if we could reliably extract 2bb of EV each hand we'd be very rich) and maximized our bluffing efficiency while also constructing an unexploitable range going to the river where we also have a chance to win the pot.

Or he's gonna have to overraise, which is where the crux of this hand's problem lies.


His turn sizing forces us into exploitation mode though because his sizing is ridiculous and should never be used so it doesn't really matter if we have better (we obviously do), it matters if he's overbluffing and hence can we make an exploitative call.

Acknowledged it's a pure x/f at equilibrium.

I wonder if we’re giving V too good of a price not to continue and potentially improve his hand. A weak pair could make 2pair or trips. Gutshots and backdoors will always continue. I think I’d rather raise them out. (I’m not talking about this hand specifically but in general).

I think the sizing may be useful as a blockbet or to disguise a value hand and induce raises. But it doesn’t seem to make much sense as a general sizing to get value or folds. Imo.

Maybe I play a ABC- poker but what I have learned in poker is that bets are to protect our hand, extract much value of our made hands and some people bet for information especially OOP …. Please explain to me Why betting 1BB is profitable even though is giving enough odds for every draw to call?

I don't mind small bet sizing in theory on low card monotone boards, but I'm not sure I see the difference between say, 1 BB and 2BB on the flop. Against most players who are going to have inelastic folding ranges anyway, I imagine they're always floating the same range for 1BB or 2BB.

I do like the 1bb line but I do think it’s pretty exploitable if not used also for deception at a high frequency. It shows weakness. I would come over the top of that bet with ATC very often... then what? It might even be a weaker signal then a check. I find the flop raise off a bet like that works very well against most normal players, even multi-way, it just comes off as being weak and USUALLY it is if ur willing to experiment and raise bluff. But against a weaker opponent there’s probably not as much need to cover yourself and include stronger holdings. Now if this guy is weak, I think others are right that you can value bet all streets with your ace high for more than 1 bb.

The raise OTT is really a similar example to the weak 1bb perception I mentioned. Quite often a weaker player will take that min bluff raise on particular boards, and that was because he perceived your 1bb as being weak, and raised 1bb(lol), hence the need to include stronger holdings when he decides you have nothing.

With all that being said, with the blinds at the level they are, I think whether true or not , min bet sizes carry more weight and 1bb bets can be used a lot more usefully later In Tournaments than earlier.

No, it's definitely not the same as a check.

Most important, you retain the lead / control in the hand.
You also learn plenty (in live mtts) from your opponent's facial reaction and time to response to this unexpected sizing.

However the turn 1BB bet looks / feels a bit whack to me and I'm not surprised it induced this reaction from V.

tbh I don't think V is weak otf/ott because small pp and any 2x 3x 6x plays exactly the same way. if anything I believe Hero is capped at exactly this kind of Ax no diamond hand and V has something like 44 or A3.

Turn is a check imho and then you're opening up a far wider bluffing range for V otr - which I'd happily call A high.

Imo you're overanalyzing the hand.
This is an awful flop for our hand, we shouldn't fight for every pot. Hence an easy x/f on the flop and fold to his minraise

.

Lol I mean sure why not
Idk if I’m seeing the old click it back ott 1/3 psb line showing up with much air though

I think in theory 1BB is good some of the time. But do you also bet 1BB on the the turn with a made flush? You would pretty much never bet 1BB on the turn with any decent hand. After the villain calls the flop, now you are giving them even better odds to call the turn.
I think if you are going to bet the turn, it should be larger. Force them to fold any high diamond, random 5s, 2s. Even a mid PP might have a decision.

On the river, I think you are getting such a good price to call. A lot of big hands (made flushes and full houses) are typically going to be raising the turn.

I swear, with literally entire range. I've posted about my thoughts on the 1bb sizing on monochrome flops before.

_______________
#TreeBuilding#V2
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#Board#5d 6d 2d
#Pot#650
#EffectiveStacks#3619
#AllinThreshold#67
#AddAllinOnlyIfLessThanThisTimesThePot#500
#MinimumBetsize#100
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#RiverConfigIP.BetSize#10, 33, 66, 100, 150, allin
#RiverConfigIP.RaiseSize#50, 100, allin
_________________

Check it out.


You prefer x/f? To all sizings?

1bb OTT is especially sweet with Ad and Kd; in fact, all hands--V has no reason to raise flop IP very much on this texture, all our non-flushes and FDs don't wanna go big (not even boats which get valuecut too bad when we get V to fold too much, plus boats have horrible blockers--as do our flushes)) so ingame didn't see any reason to EVER bet bigger with ANY hand OTT

Should prob just x/decide turn based on sizing

Are you betting 1bb otf w AsAc here too?

Yup. Literally entire range. What's your sizing or do you check?

It's certainly fine as an exploit to take any combo(s) and split it/them off in isolation and do something different than cbet1bb. What's your plan then OTT now that, having taken a bigger sizing, you're given him a chance to overfold, making his range exploitably strong (if you cbet1bb and he continues AsAh has I'd guess ~65% equity against his range; that's gonna drop to ~50% depending on just how big you wanna bet.

Lemme see if I can find some of my posts where I hypothesize why this flop phenomenon of cbet1bb being not just AN equilibrium strategy but THE equilibrium strategy occurs on monochrome boards, I've made several posts on it.

The reason you're getting this result is you selected a 30% flat call range for BTN.

If you select a more reasonable 15-20% flatcall, that range will have sets and flushes as a higher % of the overall range, less low to medium equity stuff, and less air. I haven't run it but my understanding of that type of spot, where Hero would lack 22, 65s, and a variety of flushes with high card Q or less (whereas BTN has those in his range) results in a lower freq cbet. This is because, while we may still have a global range adv, we are semi-capped in the nuts category. Personally, I don't even open 55-66 UTG in MTTs unless 50bbs+ (this is borderline, its also 8handed which helps).

Look at his stats (in b4 LOL samplesize)

OK perhaps that is somewhat presumptuous on my part lol

I'll run the sensitivity test w/ a narrower flatting range

#TreeBuilding#V2
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#FlopConfigIP.BetSize#10, 33, 66, 100, 150, allin
#FlopConfigIP.RaiseSize#50, 100, allin
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#TurnConfigIP.RaiseSize#50, 100, allin
#RiverConfigIP.BetSize#10, 33, 66, 100, 150, allin
#RiverConfigIP.RaiseSize#50, 100, allin

____________

Really not much difference besides a low frequency range check since we no longer encounter quite as much air when we cbet.

Do you really think V is going to raise turn and value bet bluff the river?

I also think you should go to a mirror and read this out loud and see how ridiculous you look saying this sentence in real life.

Ima, it's pretty obvious that you are only posting your insults in here because Eggs was critical of you in your post. Old silver just posted a hand where he raised turn and value bet bluff river. It happens. Stop projecting, look in a mirror and admit k8 suited is a donkey hand and all will get better.

Yeah jj seriously, it's right there on the front page, in fact *I'M* the very poster who tongue-in-cheek described it as a "value-bluff"

Go back riding your brother's video game coattails plumberboi

I've sounded a lot more ridiculous in much less trivial situations. And you know what, I'm gonna continue doing possibly stupid things in ever more important situations but at the very least, even if it takes a few posts back and forth to get it through my thick skull, I'm eventually gonna say, "Yeah, you're right, **** I'm an idiot", say something self deprecating, and move on.

And even if look stupid in the hands I post, at least I come here and give people fodder to discuss with my posts and give people something to pick apart with my narratives.

Instead of your posts (which you rather selfishly make btw since I don't ever recall you giving any useful advice, in fact I can't recall the last time I saw you make a post that wasn't one of your own hands--you extract, but you do not give back, pretty egregious IMO), your entire posting canon can be summed up with "fold pre" (or just more generally "unreg pre")

As stupid as I may look here (and I guarantee you I have plenty more where that came from), there's one thing I can promise you: I'm def NOT gonna flat K8s not closing the action off a 50bb stack in the main, smash the flop like Ray Rice smashes his wife in an elevator, and still not know what do such that I feel the need to solicit the advice of ******ed idiots, like me who do silly things like contemplating calling w. A-high here after "firing"two consecutive minbets--no siree, you'll never see me doing anything like that.

Know why? Because as stupid as I am--I'm not as stupid as you.