Mid stages
Hero 40bb
500/1000/100
Raise KThc BTN 2500
Sb 25bb call
BB 65bb call (hit by deck, multiple KK+ last two orbits)

Flop Qd Tc 3d
SB chk
BB leads 4k

Hero?
Calls 4K
SB folds

Turn 8d

BB leads 11k
Hero?

Prob folding turn since the only draw that didnt get there is KJ,and thats the one draw we block. Flop donk is obviously weird and it feels bad folding to someone who seems like they're clicking buttons, but we have better hands (Qx, flushes, J9) to call here with.

I’m sry turn isn’t that connected maybe 7d
Couldn’t recall exact card

I'm still pretty inclined to fold if the flush gets there and we get led into for 2/3 pot. Sometimes we let them bluff us with J9/KJ, or a very ambitious 89, but we block one of those and our range is uncapped so we can have much better hands here.

I'm pretty much always raising the flop here unless I think the donk bettor is an exceptional player who's trying to induce me here. You have position with a lot of equity and there's still just way too many "feeler bet" donk bettors out there that you have to retain control here. If he flats your raise, you can still usually check-back a blank turn card.

As played I think we have to fold the turn. Forgetting that he may be betting for value here, I think we may have lost a lot of our equity to bluffs/semi-bluffs here that contain any diamond. We have nearly no showdown value so I think it's fold > raise >>>>> call. I could see some merits in raising here but I think that ship may have already sailed.

Old guys are old

Seems very std fold

The call flop/fold turn line here seems pretty standard, unless I know for sure the donk bettor isn't necessarily limited here to hands he perceives as vulnerable (JJ, Qx) and draws. I can't wrap my head around raising flop here at all.

Prob shouldn't always fold turn without a read on his leading range...and this combo of Tx has so/so blockers...definitely can fold w/e we have a diamond

Forget what I said about raising, I misread the hand. For some reason I thought flop was QJ, sorry, and that we held an open-ender with an over (and we hold no diamonds, which was at least correct). Raising a medium strength hand on the flop makes no sense, I agree.

Raising flop looks fine I’m nearly sure you’ll want to raise flop w this combo a non 0 amount of the time

Yes I agree with raising flop here fwiw against this particular V who will fold a large part of his donk range

This really gets to the heart of why I posted this thread. When the blind/s defend and then donk into you, when are we raising? Is KT here a raising hand, or is flatting >ev

I’m not proud to say that even after years playing this game against all manner of live donkers, my strat isn’t set, my bluff raise range is uber wide, and I’m torn between flat fold and raise with the KT type hands.

I don't know why you would raise flop here. You're going to fold out the worse parts of villain's range that you want to keep betting.

why would we want Qx to keep betting? i'd expect a ton of weaker Qx stuff to donk/fold here. that's a good reason for me to bluff raise.

on the negative side, we may face a bet/jam from multis like Td9d that we're technically in front of.

idk, that's why i posted the thread.

I don't like a raise because its just too early to turn our hand into a bluff and we're still ahead of draws.

^ i agree with that too, but how often is V leading draws? Constructing V range here isn't exactly easy.

He's a semi-pro playing a few months each year before returning to other business ventures (handy table chatter). He's chipped up through some massive starting hands KK KK AA AK in 5 or 6 handed spots, including Hero doubling him 5-handed with 77 against his second KK (35BB or so). Competent but straight-forward, playing/betting value lines and strong read here is that he's donking Qx for another quick scoop rather than b/jamming Tdxd or similar.

If our stone read here is that this is exclusively Qx I'd probably just exploitably fold here because I really hate the idea of bluffing a weak live player off top pair.

I think its reasonable that they have some combo draws (Txdd) here that dont really know what to do, but do know they have equity so they'll just bet and see what happens. They can also have some weird leading strategy with other high equity draws like J9dd which we're also ahead of. I think we just call and play turns.

good fold

I think you're narrowing villain's range way too much here. It doesn't make much sense to have a leading range here with any hand. He could be doing it with Qx, Tx, a draw or with pure air. Without reads, he literally could have anything.

If you have a strong read here, that's great. You didn't include it in your OP, so there's no way we could know that.

Readless, I think it's much better to flat and keep the weaker parts of his range in. We can always turn our hand into a bluff later anyways.

Anyways, if you really think he's on Qx, I'm not even confident that we can necessarily get enough folds to make a bluff good. Are we raising any 2 cards here? If so, we're overbluffing and need to rely on villain exploitably overfolding. If we're not raising any 2 cards, we might as well flat with KTo and bluff with the weaker part of our range.