PokerStars - 15000/30000 Ante 3750 NL - Holdem - 4 players


SB: 31.15 BB (VPIP: 32.37, PFR: 23.66, 3Bet Preflop: 10.34, Hands: 140)
BB: 20.56 BB (VPIP: 24.36, PFR: 21.13, 3Bet Preflop: 13.33, Hands: 78)
CO: 26.94 BB (VPIP: 35.53, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 16.13, Hands: 76)
Hero (BTN): 9.35 BB

4 players post ante of 0.13 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2 BB) Hero has 4s As
CO raises to 2.25 BB, Hero raises to 9.22 BB and is all-in, SB calls 8.72 BB, fold, fold

Flop : (22.19 BB, 2 players) Ts 3h Tc

Turn : (22.19 BB, 2 players) 7d

River : (22.19 BB, 2 players) 8d

SB shows 8c 8s (Full House, Eights full of Tens)
(Pre 66%, Flop 79%, Turn 93%)

Hero shows 4s As (One Pair, Tens)
(Pre 34%, Flop 21%, Turn 7%)

SB wins 22.19 BB

Hi guys,

Do you think is a good all in shove for 9BBs? I just would like to say, that CO was opening really wild this FT.
Unfortunately, we went into 88 on SB. But is it still a good all in shove vs Co open?
4th place was like 3,5k, 3rd 4,9k.

Thanks a lot for any advice

Your line is fine.

You got a fold out of the loose CO, which is nice and validates your aggression. The fact that the SB stumbled into a hand is unfortunate but part of the game. Not every short-stack shove works out. This was a perfectly appropriate one to try.

In an alternate universe somewhere, there are a whole lot of short-stack nits who folded down to the felt, unsuccessfully trying to sneak into third place. All of them wish they had shoved suited aces when they had the chance.

Thank you!

HI there,

GG on your 4th place.

Even if CO is lag, A4ss isnt crushing anything in that spot.

You are not accomplishing anything

You have almost 0 fold equity and there's still 2 players to go through (if u fold, there s always the possibility of laddering) + the original CO raiser who will call you almost 100% of the time

You are on the btn, which means you can still wait 2 more hands before being in the forced blinds.

+ at that point 9bb or 8bb doesnt change much

In that regard, in that precise spot, folding and waiting for a better spot seems to be the way to go (imho)

Thanks dude for your opinion.
I have read everything and think about it one more time, you are right, it should be folded.

Listen to the first guy, not the second.

A4s is ahead of CO's opening range, and with the stack sizes what they are you're far from guaranteed any pay jumps anytime soon. You got your best opportunity for a double up and even when SB calls your all-in you have enough equity with your overcard that you should be fist pumping that you didn't get it in worse than you did.

You don't need fold equity to shove A4s with 9BBs, and even if you did, you had it, as evidenced by the wide-range opening CO's fold. That this is a turbo only solidifies your play here.

This is a 3b shove all day long. WP.

Shoving here doesn’t seem great, just because CO folds to the overcall doesn’t mean he is folding to us and realistically how high can our equity ever be ? Would fold and look for a spot with FE personally

He has 9BBs and it's 4-handed in a turbo. He's two hands away from the BB and you want him to wait for better FE? Right.

I change my opinion: fold until you get AA

yup, CO isn't folding vs us if we shove ever i think, maybe if he's opening like T4o or smt like that than he is.

i like openshoving wider the next hand with decent amount of FE. like shove CO with 45s IDC than shoving A4s without it here. someone might bust this hand if we fold etc

It doesn't really matter what you do here.

With these stack sizes, the short stack should never be thinking about fold equity, since one of the other stacks is going to be willing to make the call. Have to be looking for hands with winning capacity and four-handed a suited A-4 is likely better than most hands you are going to get within a reasonable number of orbits here so shove is good. Three hands from now hero will have 7.5BB -- are we going to find a better spot before then?

I ICMizer'ed this for you (I'm new to the program hopefully got it close to right). It's only slightly negative ICM diff.

However positive Chip EV diff, assuming 28% raise from CO, 14% call or your shove.

So, pretty much just goes on your read of CO and to some extent how loosely the other two call/reshove (and of course how much you care about the ladder vs the most optimal long term play).

I think it's possible that you would have encoutered the preflop allin regardless.

Say Sb had folded the hand, it's likely (not certain, as some bluffier combos can be included) that CO would have called you anyway, likely with a hand which dominates yours. The Sb call almost certainly deterred him with those hands however.

It's been said but it's just a situation that will happen, your line was good with <10bb with 2 remaining players. Having said that, I'd rely on the Cutoff either opening too wide to force you to fold, or them being inept to put in chips with little strength for you to have a +EV shove.

Not being sacarstic at all here, could you please explain why it doesnt really matter?

Cheers & thanks yo

It doesn't really matter because there is no wrong answer. If you decide to fold, it might be a little tight but whatever. If you decide to push, it might be a little loose but whatever. Both moves are defensible; neither move is an obvious mistake. Either way it's "WTG, NH, GG."

+1

This is roughly what I meant, or to put it more technically: I think the $EV of jam, flat and fold are all very close. One play is of course best/optimal but I don't know which one.

I see, thanks for your time!

Sorry Kevin this just isn't true. While the short stack has essentially "nothing to lose", he has everything to gain by picking the best spots to put his chips at risk. As you mention, other stacks are willing to make the call which is exactly why you shouldn't reshove 9BBs without a hand that is at least even against their raising range (A4 isn't). The 29 and 20bb stacks will be folding A LOT to an open jam from an 7-8bb stack. I've been in this spot many times, especially in SNGs and he is absolutely better off folding here.

In the fold camp personally but also agree it's really not a huge mistake no matter what we do here.

Turbo tournament, 9 bb, Shoving is the right play.
You could have considered folding, if another player is shorter than you and forced to be all in in the very next hands.

Thanks, Gnome. Two issues. First, when CO opens for 2.25BB from 26BB, is he any less likely to call the 9BB re-shove than if he had no chips in the pot already or if he was the SB or BB? I don't view the min. open as very relevant to hero's fold equity, particularly if villain is likely to consider the shove stronger over an open than it would be as an open shove.

Second, I would agree with you more if I had a read on villain as far as how likely/unlikely it is that the min. open is stronger or weaker than A4ss. If I think villain is only opening top 10% of hands and has mostly big aces and pairs then folding has more appeal. My experience in these spots is that the big stacks often abuse the small stacks by opening light often figuring that they will take down a lot of pots 4-handed by being the first to bet and will often open with hands like J-T+, QT+, K9ss+, KQ and sometimes even worse when they think they can often steal the blinds and antes.

If villain calls with A8 or A9 then bad luck for me. If he's AJ+ he probably does call and bad luck for me. If he calls with KQ or J-T then i'm as happy as I can be. If he calls with a middle pocket pair I'm behind but still alive and I'll take it in that spot rather than wait and hope for a better spot. If I'm waiting for a top 15% hand to shove, I may not find one before the blinds and antes cripple me.

But, your point is valid as to some villains and if you think we're mostly behind his min-open range, the fold is the right play.

What do others think is villain's range for this min-open from CO 4-handed?

Easy fold imo, CO should have a pretty tight range here, unless his a muppet.
HRC says we should shove 55+, ATs+, AJ+ (but i was already aware, before i even run sims with HRC)
Is a turbo MTT, and like Nomalice said above, i´ll wait for another spot where i wanna have FE, and shove myself.

It's 4-handed and he's the most active player at the table. What makes you think his range has to be tight? UTG? He's got positon on 2 of 3 players. That makes no sense.

Math is math, also SB can shove any two on CO profitable and **** him ICM wise, what´s so hard to understand?
I mean i just proved to you (HRC did actually) and things don´t make sense to you , ok then, move on guys