Is it just pretty standard to shove here? What are the arguments for min raising this and folding to a shove vs just shoving. I think the charts say shove... what are some thoughts here?


Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - $200/$400 ($40 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

Chamois999 (UTG): $43,528.00 (109 bb)
mozart528 (UTG+1): $30,211.00 (76 bb)
Im_Just_a_Nit (MP): $37,992.00 (95 bb)
puicachamp (MP+1): $34,960.00 (87 bb)
OMGitsvariance (CO): $17,071.00 (43 bb)
HollaAtYaBoi (BU): $19,204.00 (48 bb)
69Katrina69 (SB): $6,142.00 (15 bb)
JamesHarden on fir (BB): $54,418.00 (136 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($920) Hero (69Katrina69) is SB with K♦ 8♥
6 players fold, 69Katrina69 (SB) raises to $6,102 (all-in), JamesHarden on fir (BB) calls $5,702

Flop: ($12,524) Q♥ 5♠ 2♥ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($12,524) T♠ (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($12,524) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $12,524 (Rake: $0)

Showdown:
69Katrina69 (SB) mucks K♦ 8♥ (high card, King)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 24%, Flop: 17%, Turn: 7%, River: 7%)

JamesHarden on fir (BB) mucks A♦ K♠ (high card, Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 76%, Flop: 83%, Turn: 93%, River: 93%)

JamesHarden on fir (BB) wins $12,524Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - $200/$400 ($40 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

Chamois999 (UTG): $43,528.00 (109 bb)
mozart528 (UTG+1): $30,211.00 (76 bb)
Im_Just_a_Nit (MP): $37,992.00 (95 bb)
puicachamp (MP+1): $34,960.00 (87 bb)
OMGitsvariance (CO): $17,071.00 (43 bb)
HollaAtYaBoi (BU): $19,204.00 (48 bb)
69Katrina69 (SB): $6,142.00 (15 bb)
JamesHarden on fir (BB): $54,418.00 (136 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($920) Hero (69Katrina69) is SB with K♦ 8♥
6 players fold, 69Katrina69 (SB) raises to $6,102 (all-in), JamesHarden on fir (BB) calls $5,702

Flop: ($12,524) Q♥ 5♠ 2♥ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($12,524) T♠ (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($12,524) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $12,524 (Rake: $0)

Showdown:
69Katrina69 (SB) mucks K♦ 8♥ (high card, King)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 24%, Flop: 17%, Turn: 7%, River: 7%)

JamesHarden on fir (BB) mucks A♦ K♠ (high card, Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 76%, Flop: 83%, Turn: 93%, River: 93%)

JamesHarden on fir (BB) wins $12,524

100% STD shove. There's no argument for raise/folding in this spot. Shoving is the only means by which you can leverage your fold equity against the bb given stacks, and in general r/f'ing with 15 bigs is not a good look/exploitable.

Only other play here is open folding if yr hell-bent on avoiding a flip, but that's also bad from an EV perspective.

Always frustrating to run into the top of someones range, but this is def a standard shove here. Dont sweat it.

You can profitably jam very wide here. There is an alternative play; limp your entire range. Limp folding only costs you 1/2 of a blind. Limping your whole range will get you some good limp jamming hands, and win more chips when it gets through. It also 'looks' stronger.

Open jamming for 15 is definitely OK, but when I feel like I have a skill edge, I'd rather limp my entire range, and wait till about 12 BB before I switch to jam/fold

I think this is very marginal OOP and with a hand like K8 with little playability, with 15bb with no ICM considerations I shove any K even Q7o+ 87o+. I'd maybe limp 15bb with really great suited connectors and balance with nuts. Really standard shove here.

Can you elaborate on this? Not sure if it's your reasoning or phrasing that I'm not following but this seems marginal at best and I think that's being generous.

I get making -ev plays in a vacuum when presuming a skill advantage, but I think if you're going to do that in this spot open folding > limp folding.

Yes. In weak fields I don't like to open jam 15BB against just one opponent, and will limp my entire range. Most opponents will play straightforwardly against a SB limp. I can then jam for value with good hands, and play a small pot with hands like weak Kx's. They aren't raising 64s and J8 off. When I get down to 12 or fewer BBs I will play the traditional jam/fold game.

If the person who is over me is competent, I will just play traditional jam as well, avoiding playing pots out of position.