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Old 07-29-2021, 10:52 AM   #2401
answer20
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

I wish there was something to Google .. other than a TV news clip (which probably accelerated their 'demise') there's not anything else out there.

906 Poker Social in Marquette, MI

While the involvement of the MGCB can be 'found out' eventually via FOIA or public meeting notes this is probably too new for that information to be readily available and I've yet to contact the operator directly. GL
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Old 07-29-2021, 10:55 AM   #2402
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

thanks for the info i google searched the words poker room raided in michigan, and could find nothing excepts places that happened many years ago in other parts of the state.
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Old 07-29-2021, 11:00 AM   #2403
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Yes, Charity Poker in Michigan was very out of control for a bit when the Lottery folks were overseeing it. When a new governor (with supposed casino campaign fund support) transferred it over to Gaming the hammer came down.

How does any poker game produce $6K in rake on a limit of $15K in chips sales? That's a hell of a game! GL
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Old 08-05-2021, 12:34 PM   #2404
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

It’s just strange that you view the casino forcing the players to rebuy or leave the table so that you can continue to win the same amount of money you otherwise would have is a neutral situation. Just think about how much more money is on the table in a Texas situation if someone gets stacked and rebuys vs.in a casino that has been raking those same stacks for hours.

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Unfortunately, it isn't that simple. In fact, that's basically my entire argument, that it isn't even close to being a simple problem.

If a poker room disallowed re-buys or new players entering a game, then your 2 choices outlined above would be true. Because in that scenario, there would literally be no way for new dollars to find their way onto the table. The amount of money on the table would represent a continuously declining amount that eventually would have to end in zero......... But we don't live in that world. Rather, we live in the reality where two factors weaken your rather insular view of how a real pot raked game plays: (1) any player can re-buy for either the minimum or maximum buy-in amount if they lose their stack, and (2) if a player leaves the table, a new player is almost always brought in to replace them, with their fresh dollars now in play. This means that, in the normal flow of most games, the amount of money on the table stays roughly the same or even gets higher; or even if does neither of those things, it almost never just continuously declines as your argument must assume it to do so. So your argument has a false assumption built into it.
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Old 08-14-2021, 12:09 PM   #2405
Greg (FossilMan)
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

If you want to have some fun in the far south of Texas (Edinburg, to be exact), I will be at The House Club (www.thehouseclubtx.com) on Aug. 19-21. Will be hosting a low limit Dealer's Choice game that Thursday, and playing in the tournament on Friday and Saturday. Come join me if you can, it will be a lot of fun!!

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
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Old 08-16-2021, 09:48 PM   #2406
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Does anybody know if the payouts for the Johnny Chan 500k were as reported in poker atlas or if there was a chop?
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Old 08-18-2021, 11:42 AM   #2407
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Does anybody know if the payouts for the Johnny Chan 500k were as reported in poker atlas or if there was a chop?
Played it out. There was no chop.
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Old 08-18-2021, 08:36 PM   #2408
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Does anyone know anything about The Fort Card Room in Willow Park? It showed up on PokerAtlas as Coming Soon, but there's no website listed and google was no help. Would be nice to have something on the West side of DFW.
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Old 08-18-2021, 08:54 PM   #2409
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Willow Park seems like the kind of town that would fight that tooth and nail.
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Old 08-18-2021, 10:25 PM   #2410
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Willow Park is west of Fort Worth. Don't know anything about that area.

We still need a room north of Fort Worth. I know of an area between FW and Denton in an UNINCORPORATED area on 35W. New neighborhoods, no well established neighborhood groups, affluent area. New strip center being built. PM for location.

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Old 08-19-2021, 02:04 AM   #2411
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

I don't know a lot about Willow Park other than that they used to have a speed trap running on I20 all the time and I've heard of several people having issues with their police department.

Come to think of it though, Trinity Meadows horseracing track was in Willow Park, so they may be more open to it than I originally thought.
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Old 08-19-2021, 10:31 PM   #2412
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

I used to think of Dallas as PLO central. Anyone know if there are still regular games there? It occurred to me that on my recent trip to Houston there were definitely people in the game (at Social 88) that I used to see at Winstar. So I'm wondering if any of the greater DFW area games have migrated to Houston (not that Winstar is DFW, haha).
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Old 08-23-2021, 01:00 AM   #2413
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Anyone know what happened to FREEROLLS in Katy? They were the raking pots and calling it Ping. Did they just shut down Poker Atlas or shutdown completely?
With Trent still invoked and the numerous investors they have screwed I’m really surprised they have lasted this long in business.
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Old 08-23-2021, 12:59 PM   #2414
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by GtownAce View Post
Anyone know what happened to FREEROLLS in Katy? They were the raking pots and calling it Ping. Did they just shut down Poker Atlas or shutdown completely?
LOL, really? I don't know why they'd bother, don't these clubs have lawyers? They is nothing in Texas code that makes rake any more illegal than the time collection most Texas clubs use, they should have just called it rake.
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Old 08-23-2021, 04:50 PM   #2415
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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LOL, really? I don't know why they'd bother, don't these clubs have lawyers? They is nothing in Texas code that makes rake any more illegal than the time collection most Texas clubs use, they should have just called it rake.
Your absolutely correct it is illegal. DA in Houston can’t shut anyone down cause of her involvement or ties to the scam that was pulled on a couple clubs. If they wanted to shut these places down would be easy just stop any dealer from making any money while in the box. Can’t make a profit off of gambling in Texas is the law correct?
Unfortunately one day it will happen it’s just a matter of when not if.
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Old 08-23-2021, 06:52 PM   #2416
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Two sources to see the legal issues surrounding Texas clubs.

https://guides.sll.texas.gov/gambling/poker-clubs

https://blog.texasbar.com/2020/02/ar...ms-for-profit/
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Old 08-23-2021, 09:27 PM   #2417
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Can anyone give me the synopsis of poker options near Dallas? I am headed into town later this week and am looking for low to mid stakes PLO game.
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Old 08-23-2021, 10:13 PM   #2418
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

The only one I know of is Texas Card House. There are some others I'm not sure about, but you can probably see them on PokerAtlas. Or search this thread for recent DreamCrusher posts as he seems to be pretty up to date on the Dallas poker happenings. There are a couple of casinos around an hour north of Dallas, just over the border into Oklahoma. Winstar and Choctaw Durant, they're both on Bravo. TCH shows 2 1/2 PLO games going now on their website, so I imagine the weekends are pretty good for PLO.

https://texascardhouse.com/dallas/
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Old 08-24-2021, 07:01 PM   #2419
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by GtownAce View Post
Your absolutely correct it is illegal. DA in Houston can’t shut anyone down cause of her involvement or ties to the scam that was pulled on a couple clubs. If they wanted to shut these places down would be easy just stop any dealer from making any money while in the box. Can’t make a profit off of gambling in Texas is the law correct?
Unfortunately one day it will happen it’s just a matter of when not if.
The test isn't exactly "profit", but close, it is "economic gain". I don't know how they got the idea that charging time is somehow different than rake, but that is what their whole argument is based on.

I'd imagine in court it will go something like this:

Prosecutor: So tell me Mr. Card House, is it better to have 4 or 8 tables running at any time?

MCH: Well, 8, obviously.

Prosecutor: And why is that?

MCH: Well duh, because we make more money running 8 tables than 4.

Prosecutor: The prosecution rests.
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Old 08-28-2021, 04:52 PM   #2420
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by unlucky4some View Post
The test isn't exactly "profit", but close, it is "economic gain". I don't know how they got the idea that charging time is somehow different than rake, but that is what their whole argument is based on.

I'd imagine in court it will go something like this:

Prosecutor: So tell me Mr. Card House, is it better to have 4 or 8 tables running at any time?

MCH: Well, 8, obviously.

Prosecutor: And why is that?

MCH: Well duh, because we make more money running 8 tables than 4.

Prosecutor: The prosecution rests.
Their loophole is that you pay to enter the club and their economic gain is from you simply being present at the social club. You can play pool, darts, chess, socialize, have drinks, host a birthday party or play cards. No matter which of these or other activities you partake in, you must pay to get in. If you want to play cards, the club cant rent you a seat to do that, and by charging this way, they have no interest in the outcome of the game or size of the pot.

Now that being said, a ton of the clubs have no form of membership and just blatantly rake the pots a certain dollar amount based on the size of the pot and charge no entry or hourly.

I've seen a ton of rooms that have actually moved from the time model to just straight raking, no attempt to hide it and they advertise "no entry no hourly" all over social media.
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Old 08-31-2021, 01:33 AM   #2421
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

It’s only a matter of time for Clubs like Freerolls, Empire and few others who advertise no time charge or entry fee and straight Rake the pot.
FreeRolls already struggling really bad can’t even get games going most days
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Old 08-31-2021, 09:40 PM   #2422
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by nutsornot View Post
Their loophole is that you pay to enter the club and their economic gain is from you simply being present at the social club. You can play pool, darts, chess, socialize, have drinks, host a birthday party or play cards. No matter which of these or other activities you partake in, you must pay to get in. If you want to play cards, the club cant rent you a seat to do that, and by charging this way, they have no interest in the outcome of the game or size of the pot.
I love that clubs use that straw-man logic. "This thing that we made up that sounds like it might be illegal, well we aren't doing that thing! We are golden!"

Nutsornot, just where, exactly, EXACTLY, in this does it mention anything about "not having an interest in the outcome" of the game being a defense? Please underline that for us.

Sec. 47.04. KEEPING A GAMBLING PLACE.

(a) A person commits an offense if he knowingly uses or permits another to use as a gambling place any real estate, building, room, tent, vehicle, boat, or other property whatsoever owned by him or under his control, or rents or lets any such property with a view or expectation that it be so used.

(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the gambling occurred in a private place;

(2) no person received any economic benefit other than personal winnings; and

(3) except for the advantage of skill or luck, the risks of losing and the chances of winning were the same for all participants.
(c) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
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Old 09-01-2021, 01:05 PM   #2423
Greg (FossilMan)
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by unlucky4some View Post
I love that clubs use that straw-man logic. "This thing that we made up that sounds like it might be illegal, well we aren't doing that thing! We are golden!"

Nutsornot, just where, exactly, EXACTLY, in this does it mention anything about "not having an interest in the outcome" of the game being a defense? Please underline that for us.

Sec. 47.04. KEEPING A GAMBLING PLACE.

(a) A person commits an offense if he knowingly uses or permits another to use as a gambling place any real estate, building, room, tent, vehicle, boat, or other property whatsoever owned by him or under his control, or rents or lets any such property with a view or expectation that it be so used.

(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the gambling occurred in a private place;

(2) no person received any economic benefit other than personal winnings; and

(3) except for the advantage of skill or luck, the risks of losing and the chances of winning were the same for all participants.
(c) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
It is not only the wording of the statutes, but also prior case law that indicates what a law means. There are cases out there where a private club has allowed its members to gamble against one another for money. This includes poker games being played for money at places like a VFW hall or a private country club. The clubs make money from membership fees, and/or by selling food and drink. But, they didn't rake the poker games. In these cases, the clubs were found not guilty, even though they were charging for these other things, since they weren't raking the game itself. By analogy, the poker clubs have opened, and their position is we also don't rake the game directly, but instead charge a membership fee and sell food and drink to make our money. Will these new poker clubs win if they are taken to court and hold a full trial? No one can say with 100% certainty until after it happens. But that is the club's position on this legal question.

Cheers, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
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Old 09-01-2021, 02:06 PM   #2424
unlucky4some
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg (FossilMan) View Post
It is not only the wording of the statutes, but also prior case law that indicates what a law means. There are cases out there where a private club has allowed its members to gamble against one another for money. This includes poker games being played for money at places like a VFW hall or a private country club. The clubs make money from membership fees, and/or by selling food and drink. But, they didn't rake the poker games. In these cases, the clubs were found not guilty, even though they were charging for these other things, since they weren't raking the game itself. By analogy, the poker clubs have opened, and their position is we also don't rake the game directly, but instead charge a membership fee and sell food and drink to make our money. Will these new poker clubs win if they are taken to court and hold a full trial? No one can say with 100% certainty until after it happens. But that is the club's position on this legal question.
If there was VFW or country club charging time for a poker game and they won in court, that would seem to set a precedent, do you have a case I can look up? Did it make it to an appeals court or just a district court?
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Old 09-01-2021, 09:11 PM   #2425
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by unlucky4some View Post
I love that clubs use that straw-man logic. "This thing that we made up that sounds like it might be illegal, well we aren't doing that thing! We are golden!"

Nutsornot, just where, exactly, EXACTLY, in this does it mention anything about "not having an interest in the outcome" of the game being a defense? Please underline that for us.

Sec. 47.04. KEEPING A GAMBLING PLACE.

(a) A person commits an offense if he knowingly uses or permits another to use as a gambling place any real estate, building, room, tent, vehicle, boat, or other property whatsoever owned by him or under his control, or rents or lets any such property with a view or expectation that it be so used.

(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the gambling occurred in a private place;

(2) no person received any economic benefit other than personal winnings; and

(3) except for the advantage of skill or luck, the risks of losing and the chances of winning were the same for all participants.
(c) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
Well first off I'm no lawyer, but it seems as though when it comes to matters of law its not as simple as what a law exactly, EXACTLY says. From what I can tell it looks like people in the legal world interpret these laws their own ways and argue about it until there is a decision made. Thus, I'm afraid I have to disappoint you and will not be able to take up the requested underlining.

Although, here is a small excerpt from a webpage that waldoworld posted a link to which may help to explain it better than I'm capable of.

"Seeking to operate as legitimate businesses, current day gambling concerns have taken advantage of the “private place” and “economic benefit” provisions outlined as defenses to gambling prosecutions. The gambling statute provides no definition for the term “economic benefit”; thus, appellate courts have looked elsewhere for guidance and now rely on the meaning ascribed in Section 1.07(a)(7) of the Texas Penal Code: “Anything reasonably regarded as economic gain or advantage, including benefit to any other person whose welfare the beneficiary is interested.” (Miller v. State, 874 S.W.2d 908 (Tex. App.–Houston [1st Dist.] 1994, pet. ref’d)).

As a result, present-day establishments operate as “private clubs” and enlist the advantage of the “economic benefit” clause by not taking a “rake” or percentage of the game for hosting. Instead, these private poker clubs assess fees for membership as well as for the time that participants spend at the gaming tables. Some clubs also profit from alcohol and food sales."
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