I'm not a lawyer and I don't have any inside knowledge about how the people who own these places and their lawyers came to their conclusion about the separation of gaming chips from dealer tips and time chips. The following statement is simply my own thoughts on a logical explanation:

The relevant Texas law contains the the following section:

(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) the actor engaged in gambling in a private place;

(2) no person received any economic benefit other than personal winnings; and

(3) except for the advantage of skill or luck, the risks of losing and the chances of winning were the same for all participants.

Parts one and three are pretty straightforward and these clubs should be able to meet those so Section 2 is where they must prove they should not be prosecuted. In order to do that, you can interpret section 2 as

No person received any economic benefit other than personal winnings from the gambling activity

If the gambling activity is defined as the betting of chips by the players and that gambling activity is conducted with chips that are used strictly for settling the bets between the players then no exchanges of money that don't involve the chips are an economic benefit that is derived from the gambling activity.

Now we can argue forever here about whether or not a judge would accept such a rationale in a trial but it's strictly hot air unless and until one of these clubs is ordered to close and decides to fight it in court. However, I can say one thing for sure. The Gaudio case that is constantly dragged into the discussion by HTwn does NOT preclude such an argument.

I believe he was asking from a LEGALITY perspective.

The most interesting thing about Gaudio is that it shows you how the court will reason through a question about tips, namely:
1. First they will look at it on a plain language basis...what does the statute say?
2. If, and only if, they conclude it's confusing will they look at other stuff like the practice commentary, etc, to get at what the Legislature intended when they made the law.

With either approach, though, how to you going to argue the tips aren't from gambling activity? Players tip only after they win a hand, and whatever undercover officer is the witness in the court case on this is going to see this happen repeatedly and testify that's how it went down.

These are good questions. Even the wikipedia page for rake includes a description of time collection as rake. It seems like it would be pretty easy for a prosecutor to argue that a "seat charge" or a "club access fee" you have to pay to play poker is rake.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rake_(poker)

That's a real softball, HTwn. If you've ever played poker, you will know that tips are not paid "only after they win a hand". In any case, the dealers are tipped for "dealing well". That may be defined by players as dealing them a winning hand or they may have some other definition. The dealers are profiting from dealing not from gambling.

Is it a softball? How do you separate the act of dealing from gambling activity? It seems like it's a fundamental part. If there's no dealing, then no gambling at poker can occur.

Is this something someone cooked up after a few drinks, or is it based on on something in the Penal Code or case law?

I practice in a jurisdiction outside of Texas. What the game runners are trying to do is distinguish an indirect economic benefit from a direct economic one.

Unfortunately, IMO, not only is there nothing in the legislative history of the statute that would indicate intent to do so, the practice guide is explicit: the statutory scheme is clear, 47.01 et seq is clearly to proscribe all gambling businesses. Masking it under the guise of a "private social club" doesn't change anything. Moreover, the statute proscribes any economic benefit.

Look, I get paid, and paid very well, to find the cracks in statutes and hammer it from there. I've been looking at this one for almost 3 years now, and IMO it's very well written and on the economic benefit issue, pretty much bulletproof.

IIRC, there was a link to Gaudio on SIGH's website. I did see it somewhere and read the case.

And the circle repeats...someone who does NOT practice in Texas returns to make the same basic post they did six weeks ago.

As to the link to Gaudio...I put it on this very website during October. I had also pointed out that one of them thar hi'falutin' subscriptions was not even required...even the masses have access to Texas appellate Opinions issued across much of the past two decades (and some even older than that).

I still keep waiting for these magical arrests that HTPG keeps insisting are just around the corner to occur so we can quickly see the dismissal of prosecution...he overlooks that Lester Blizzard failed miserably at getting convictions when he was a prosecutor in Harris County in the other cases HTPG has linked. Money even had to be RETURNED to defendants in those game room cases...

This topic is 27 pages long. I’d be willing to be only 10 deals with the clubs, rest is arguing over what’s legal or not.
We get it.
How is Kings & Cards doing now that Prime opened?

Agree! This thread should be about the clubs, how the games are, etc. HTown really mucked it up.

Kings &cards still posts every day on FB. Appears to focused on small but in tourneys.

It should be pretty clear by now that some jurisdictions are going to allow these clubs to operate and some will not under the current law. Until and if the law is changed, what is the purpose of further discussion?

By the way, Kojacks Poker Club in Midland is highly recommended. See website for tournament schedule. Running single table satellites for a $500/entry 30K guarantee in May. 1/3, 2/5 NL run regularly, sometimes PLO or PLO hi/lo or even 5 card PLO Big Mitt hi/lo. Very friendly staff, nice place, security provided.

All I know is that they are all still open in Harris County. Legal or not the current Harris County DA appears to have no interesting in pursuing cases...... Now lets get back to talking poker.....

That's nice. I'm legit and long known to the site ownership. I've also been in practice (gaming regulation) over 20 years. Feel free to drop me a line. See, from one practicioner to another, I thought I would be getting some professional courtesy.

I don't know the local political landscape well enough to speculate on what might or might not happen. But I do understand politics, and I do understand gambling is an emotional topic for many. I also think you may have a blind spot or two here on this.

The tournaments at Prime have been great! The Saturday one is always a $60K guarantee or more.

Other info on Prime. They posted on FB they have eliminated antes from their tournaments. Interested to see how that will work out. New structure is on their FB page. They have also eliminated their nightly 6:00 daily tournaments. Now just running 1 per day at Noon - Monday-Friday.

Re: their cash games, still much slower (traffic wise) than Post Oak. During the day they are typically only getting 1 1/3 NL game and occasionally a 1/3 ROE. Around 7 or so their daily 5/10 PLO game gets going and it plays big(most people straddling $25). At night they might get 2 1/3 NL tables going. Friday and Saturday's are another story as they usually get multiple tables going of 1/3, a 5/5 NL, a 1/2/5 PLO or 1/3 ROE and 1 to 2 5/10 PLO's.

Post Oak still has the best game selection. Typically getting 5 or so 1/3 and 1 or 2 5/5 PLO tables daily. On weekends they have up to 7 1/3, 1 5/5 NL and sometimes 3 5/5 PLO's.

For you San Antonio players I just saw on the Poker Atlas app that there is now a room there on the app that says Opening Soon - AJCH on Wurzbach Road

Another new one opening on the north side... Rounders. Will be located west of 45 north off Cypresswood.
https://www.facebook.com/Rounders-Po...3923161439155/

https://rounderspokerroom.com/

250 Cypresswood dr #F
Spring, Texas

The new rake free Legion has not been able to maintain many live games. They have been closed for several days.

I went once and wasn't terribly impressed. The game played pretty small/nitty compared to Post Oak but still charged $15/hr. It seems so difficult to find decent rake free games in north Houston.

Thanks for these updates btw

Did they relocate everything from the other place just north of 2920 or are they running two operations?

Two places and recruiting people from the legal game into the illegal one

The Legion legal game reopening Sunday btw

Played here tonight. Game was short handed/relatively nitty and tournament had a weird structure where the blinds just skyrocket out of nowhere. But they're down the street from Legion's place and are much cheaper, so if they can pull players from there the games can get quite good.

Prime is now on Poker Atlas along with Post Oak.

Traveling to Plano this week...are there any rooms/games I could find nearby?

I tried reading the past few pages on this thread but there was so much back & forth I gave up and took the easy way out, and just asking.

TIA!

They had a $50k guarantee tourney today. $225 buy-in with unlimited rebuys.