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Old 01-16-2018, 06:48 PM   #526
FearlessPhil
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Can one of you legal eagles explain to me what will happen in this scenario:

A poker room operating in what they believe to be a legal manner is sent a cease and desist order by local law enforcement.

The lawyers for the room inform local law enforcement that they are not violating the law and will not comply.

Local law enforcement arrives at the room and orders them to shut down.

What happens next?
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:01 PM   #527
sdwhitt
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by Texasholdemmike View Post
Just heard of a another one will be opening in the old Churrasco steak house in the Galleria area. It will be called Prime... Suppose to have 40 tables and will offer lots of different limit games and NL.. Also will have a full kitchen. Supposed to open in about two weeks.
That’s only a mile from Kings and Cards.
Plus Lions and Post Oak are maybe 5 minutes away, they’re just going to cannibalize each other,
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:34 PM   #528
Makonnen
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by Texasholdemmike View Post
Just heard of a another one will be opening in the old Churrasco steak house in the Galleria area. It will be called Prime... Suppose to have 40 tables and will offer lots of different limit games and NL.. Also will have a full kitchen. Supposed to open in about two weeks.
What is strange (to me) is the total absence of social media/web presence for them. Only thing I found a couple days ago was a job listing on Craigslist.

I don't know if there is a difference between cannibalizing and letting market forces do their thing. First sizable room to drop their rates, offer significant discounts on monthly memberships, etc will win, no?
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:08 PM   #529
BulltexasATM
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by Texasholdemmike View Post
Just heard of a another one will be opening in the old Churrasco steak house in the Galleria area. It will be called Prime... Suppose to have 40 tables and will offer lots of different limit games and NL.. Also will have a full kitchen. Supposed to open in about two weeks.
This is the one I posted about in Post #487. Lots of PLO games and larger nl games will be moving there from Post Oak.
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Old 01-17-2018, 06:08 AM   #530
GtownAce
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Dont think that POP wont react to there new competition down the street when Prime Opens. It will be the nicest room in town but wont be that easy. Rumors are swirling on the tables about these rooms getting to close and popping up on every corner around there. cant see them all lasting throughout the year!
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:51 AM   #531
BulltexasATM
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Dont think that POP wont react to there new competition down the street when Prime Opens. It will be the nicest room in town but wont be that easy. Rumors are swirling on the tables about these rooms getting to close and popping up on every corner around there. cant see them all lasting throughout the year!
Might be too late for POP. Players are fed up with their horrible floor people) in particular Tom) and other things like the forced valet etc. The guy that owns Prime already knows a lot of the higher stakes players.

You are correct that most of these rooms won’t make it. Kings & Cards will probably be one of the first as it is already struggling.
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Old 01-17-2018, 06:50 PM   #532
GtownAce
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Problem is most lf these guys think they can just open and they will be a instant hit. Places like King of Cards rin the place just like a underground poker rooms....there tournament bonus are standard in underground rooms. Prepay for cash and get extra chips who wants to do that anymore. Dealer special for extra chips???? People question how is that even Legal.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:25 PM   #533
HTwnPokerGuy
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by michelle227 View Post
Aside from the fact that nobody has actually shown any of these alleged letters, you conveniently overlook that, from what has been described in the thread, Mint was NOT operating in a manner consistent with a model that was compliant. They have been described as allowing chips off the table for tips and to pay for other charges.

In other words, unless people have not been truthful about how Mint operates (I never played there- too far south for me to drive), they have more in common with the underground games than the ones using models in place around the State and that are on par with POPC.

And you, HTPG, have YET to refute the fact that law enforcement often screws the pooch by making assertions not steeped in law. Outside of poker, we have the incident at the Hyatt and where the DA had to concede last week that the request for high bail was based on flawed information (you still have never addressed that case). You also ignore the dismissals in the Le series of offenses that expressly stated they were due to insufficient evidence and that the grand jury also no-billed other allegations. Blizzard did not get a single conviction out of all of that bluster.

How exactly DID your day in the Clerk's office go? Oh that's right...you don't know jack about criminal jurisprudence and probably have no clue about reviewing a file...
Looks like SIGH received a copy of the Mint Poker cease and desist letter and has published it.

https://www.stopillegalgamblinghoust...Activities-End
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:44 PM   #534
LeGrosB
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

I take it that this "Stop Illegal Gambling in Houston" group is an invention of the underground and unquestionably illegal game operators.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:47 PM   #535
HTwnPokerGuy
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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I take it that this "Stop Illegal Gambling in Houston" group is an invention of the underground and unquestionably illegal game operators.
Seems unlikely. The guy I've traded emails with is a pastor.
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:08 PM   #536
LeGrosB
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by HTwnPokerGuy View Post
Seems unlikely. The guy I've traded emails with is a pastor.
LOL, The Reverend PLO
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:42 PM   #537
DrStrange
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Is anyone alleging the linked cease and desist letter is a forgery or fraud? Are there reasons to think the city attorney is bluffing or insincere in his statements?

I do not care one way or the other about the politics of the "stop illegal gambling in Houston". If the information linked on their site is accurate, it is worthy of discussion and analysis.

There have been impassioned opinions about how the current statute(s) are going to be interpreted by law enforcement and the courts. It seems to me that anything in writing from a sitting local official is noteworthy. Let's note I am not saying the governments position is "right" or would / would not prevail in court. Just that the discussion should be focused on the merits of the legal views not on who is the political base supporting "stop illegal gambling in Houston"
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:47 PM   #538
HTwnPokerGuy
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by HTwnPokerGuy View Post
Looks like SIGH received a copy of the Mint Poker cease and desist letter and has published it.

https://www.stopillegalgamblinghoust...Activities-End
Reading through this, the city attorney seems to be mirroring a lot of what the SIGH guys say about the paid membership/time rake model:
1. The time rake required for access to the poker/club is an economic benefit, negating the affirmative defenses in 47.02 and 47.04
2. These clubs are "gambling places", setting them up for 47.03 violations

Separately, the false advertising stuff about being city approved is pretty funny.
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:15 PM   #539
Texasholdemmike
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by HTwnPokerGuy View Post
Looks like SIGH received a copy of the Mint Poker cease and desist letter and has published it.

https://www.stopillegalgamblinghoust...Activities-End
Well it has been a month and Mint is still open. It will be interesting on what happens going forward. I assume the police will show up soon and shut it down and then we will see how the court case goes.
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Old 01-18-2018, 11:39 PM   #540
TexasLexus
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by FearlessPhil View Post
Can one of you legal eagles explain to me what will happen in this scenario:

A poker room operating in what they believe to be a legal manner is sent a cease and desist order by local law enforcement.

The lawyers for the room inform local law enforcement that they are not violating the law and will not comply.

Local law enforcement arrives at the room and orders them to shut down.

What happens next?
Owners get arrested and charged with violation of gambling laws. Plea bargain or trial ensues.
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Old Yesterday, 11:01 AM   #541
FearlessPhil
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by TexasLexus View Post
Owners get arrested and charged with violation of gambling laws. Plea bargain or trial ensues.
Assuming that they do not plea bargain and continue to maintain that they are not violating the law, can they remain open pending resolution?

The letter that was sent to Mint poker indicates that the city of Webster must have an injunction before actually acting to shut the place down. I assume that injunction must be issued by a judge. Is that correct? Does this judge have to evaluate the legality of the club before issuing this injunction?
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Old Yesterday, 11:25 AM   #542
KhoiFishy
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Guys I’m visiting Houston this weekend. Where should I go for good action and plenty of NLH games? Post Oak, Lion, or Kings and Queens?
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Old Yesterday, 01:37 PM   #543
HTwnPokerGuy
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by KhoiFishy View Post
Guys I’m visiting Houston this weekend. Where should I go for good action and plenty of NLH games? Post Oak, Lion, or Kings and Queens?
Oh hey! You ran FTN in McKinney right? Y'all got one of these cease and desist letters, no? What did your attorneys say when it happened?
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Old Yesterday, 01:54 PM   #544
FearlessPhil
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTwnPokerGuy View Post
Reading through this, the city attorney seems to be mirroring a lot of what the SIGH guys say about the paid membership/time rake model:
1. The time rake required for access to the poker/club is an economic benefit, negating the affirmative defenses in 47.02 and 47.04
2. These clubs are "gambling places", setting them up for 47.03 violations

Separately, the false advertising stuff about being city approved is pretty funny.
This clause in the cease and desist order:

" and also provides for the sale of food and other refreshments and the
tipping of club personnel. "

seems like a massive overreach. This would also make games in private clubs that are not specifically created for poker illegal.
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Old Yesterday, 03:04 PM   #545
KhoiFishy
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

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Originally Posted by HTwnPokerGuy View Post
Oh hey! You ran FTN in McKinney right? Y'all got one of these cease and desist letters, no? What did your attorneys say when it happened?
Nah, it wasn't me but it was my friend Jody Wheeler. But the end result was that he closed up shop. He had the option to stay open fight it if they got "raided" but he did not want to risk his employees as they were threatened to be pulled into the lawsuit as well.
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Old Yesterday, 05:28 PM   #546
BulltexasATM
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Re: Membership-Based Poker in Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by KhoiFishy View Post
Guys I’m visiting Houston this weekend. Where should I go for good action and plenty of NLH games? Post Oak, Lion, or Kings and Queens?
Post Oak will have the largest number of games/tables running. They are on Poker Atlas so you can see what is running there is you download the app.
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