While I don't agree with everything that HTwn says - I can agree that as the devils advocate he makes a good point. What else do the clubs offer? What else do they make money off of? Are they non-profit social clubs? I can see the arguments going both ways in court. The clubs are specifically designed/made to play poker (their names tell all). The house makes profit based on the membership fees, the hourly "rake"/charge for seats to play in a poker game, and not much else.

It's a business model based on gambling and disguised as something else.

While I'll still play in the card houses that are up; I won't kid myself into thinking they are completely legal.

VIP shutdown after being open 6 weeks lots of rumors on why but i know alot of dealers there and they play at MINT and they have said that the owners had lots of trouble making payroll. The place was really nice and word was out one owner who shut it down was desperately trying to sell it but failed. One dealer told me place had a owner no one could work with and the place failed after he got rid of game runner Robert i played there big guaranteed tournament and it was one of the biggest tournaments ive seen in town they never had any tournaments after and it closed days after. I have heard more rumors lately that owner couldnt pay rent and that a new owner was taking over but that was 2 weeks ago. Ill be at Mint this week and im sure ill find out the latest rumors

I do not concur that people are gathering in all of them for the sole purpose of poker. This is where I believe the places like POPC are doing things well by having outside cigar/television viewing areas as well as a full menu. It allows for the argument if anything ever went to the level of prosecution that it is on par with a country club that charges for access and is a place that some people go simply to eat or get away from home. If push came to shove, I could garner a few dozen witnesses who are members of country clubs and spend a lot of time there doing things OTHER than playing golf. And since you pay to get in the door at places like POPC regardless of whether you see a single hand of poker, my guess is that the owners could do the same with their clientele.

It is abundantly clear that some in this thread have never been involved with any component of the practice of law. And of those that have, my guess is they never shared space with anyone that routinely was involved with the eight-liner defendants. It is a niche area, just as is the good DWI representation and some other specific areas of law.

Good attorneys do not rely upon statutes that no longer exist as worded and do not base their decisions on irrelevant appellate opinions that are also ancient and where there is a wealth of resources that might not have existed years ago.

Except that there is caselaw that exists that specifically puts poker as a skill game and NOT gambling. And, if there is no gambling that is going on, then one can clearly NOT be 'keeping a gambling place.'

Where funds are NOT coming off of the table, it is not a rake. Even if you look to the way some games are run that have a time rake (which is generally 5-10 and above), those chips come from the table, not cash out of the player's pockets. I haven't seen a time-rake in New Orleans in several years. Have no idea what Lake Charles might be doing.

Tips in the properly run establishments are ALSO not permitted to come from the table, and we have a Reporter's Record now where the federal government essentially conceded that tips were not funds from gambling. If you look at what got Bloom charged and convicted, it was not the game itself...it was allowing a rake FROM THE TABLE. That was in the government's statement at sentencing...

Part of providing competent defense representation is looking at the facts of a specific case. Further, where counsel in a proceeding fails to preserve the error, it is punted for appellate purposes. I have lost track of the number of cases I have seen through my career where there was a damned fine argument for appeal except for the fact that trial counsel failed to preserve it...and at that juncture, you are left only with pursuit of an IAC claim, something that rarely succeeds.

Compounding matters is that litigation IS costly. A lot of people aren't willing to spend thousands upon thousands on a simple misdemeanor even if they know they were on legally sound footing. And those are fees that generally need to be paid up front, or at least in full prior to a jury being picked. Even on my parole work, we don't present a case to the Board until we have been paid in full...and we aren't charging THAT much (~$15K).

This is another example where y'all are missing really basic stuff. The gambling laws in Texas are written such that gambling offenses are for games where there's even only a PARTIAL element of chance involved. Go look at the definition of "bet" in 47.01. Any prosecutor can easily make the argument that running a flush draw into a pair for all the chips has a partial element of chance to it.

Why do you think coming off the table matters? Where does it say this in the statutes or anywhere in the case law? In 47.02 and 47.04 (where there is an affirmative defense) the test is whether or not there's an ECONOMIC BENEFIT not a rake or tip that comes off the table.

Further "economic benefit" is undefined in the statutes. This means the term gets interpreted on a plain language basis. So, people are going to do things like pull dictionary definitions to describe what an "economic benefit" is. In these broad definitions, really pointed concepts like "on" or "off" the table don't come into play. Go take a look at Gaudio v. State to see this in action.

In 47.03...with no affirmative defense...the test is whether or not you "operate or participate in the earnings of a gambling place." Again, nothing is said about coming off the table or not. Time rakes and tips, even if paid out of pocket instead of in chips, are still earnings from a gambling place.

EVEN IF in some parallel universe coming off the table actually mattered, we've all seen staff at Post Oak Poker Club and Mint Poker get lazy and allow time rake and tips to be paid using chips coming off the table.

Come on that's a streeeeeeeeeetch. Bloom's case was FEDERAL. The federal section she got charged under, 1955, requires one to violate a state's gambling laws. So they were looking at whether or not she violated NEW YORK gambling laws. Texas law is completely different. Look how different these gambling statutes are:
New York
Texas

Alright enough FREE HELP from me. You guys are going to have to spot the gaping holes in your arguments yourselves from now on. I hope you do...prison sucks.

One last point...the gambling laws in Texas were re-written in the 70's. Yes, they eased up a bit on the penalties in the 90's, but the language in the statutes that defines whether or not you're guilty in the first place hasn't changed.

You're nuts if you're not looking at case law over the span of that entire time. ALL OF IT will be useful on appeal...which is what matters to you since no jury is going to buy all the "rake-less," "off-the-table," "game of skill" nonsense y'all are peddling. Also, don't forget to punch the biggest, baddest dude in the yard on DAY 1 so you don't become some bad man's boyfriend.

OKAY NOW I'M TRULY DONE HELPING!

Be on the lookout for Prime Social Club opening just down the street from Post Oak and Lions...guys from Vegas running it and by the looks of the layout and decorations there was no holding back.

Aside from the fact that gambling and even the keeping of a 'gambling place' is NOT a felony and therefore does not carry the risk of pen time, you illustrate just how little you know about the Texas criminal jurisprudence processes. Guess your extensive legal background overlooked that thing called an appeal bond...even on a felony, anyone with a sentence of less than a decade is generally going to be eligible for an appeal bond.

But here, we are talking misdemeanor offenses, which makes it hardly worth the time to even file. And even if someone DID get convicted, they aren't going to jail for playing cards.

Oh, and FWIW, even if I ever DID somehow wind up in prison, I don't have to worry about being someone's 'boyfriend.' Women are not housed with males. But since I don't run around committing felonies, that is sort of a moot point. Another point lost on you, but a point nonetheless...

What do you mean by 'just down the street?'

Seems a risk of dilution by having too many top-tier locations that close to each other. It is the wolves eating their own that is going to be the death of poker in Houston, not the shills that constantly fall back on antiquated Opinions and play Chicken Little while they show how little they actually know about the practice of criminal law...

And yes, I realize there is poker up and down the Strip in Las Vegas, but Houston doesn't have the poker-specific player base flying in for the sole purpose of playing poker like LAS has. Instead, it is dependent upon the local players. Dilution means the owners cannot make the monthly nut on the lease, which then leads to doors closing (which, of course, is also what the shills want to see happen, just that it won't happen the way they keep claiming).

Don’t get why you’d open anothe club in galleria area. I’d try going downtown/Montrose area. Disappointing to hear about VIP, great facility.

Following this thread, what I find most interesting is that one side is defending an unquestionably illegal activity by insisting that a questionably legal activity is in fact illegal.

Lake Charles, Shreveport, and Baton Rouge casino poker rooms all take traditional rake. Last time I was at Harrah's -New Orleans, they were in process of switching off time rake to traditional rake, but I haven't been there in several years.

Kojack's Poker Club in Midland has been open two weeks, and I recommend highly.

There is another one opening later this month that I assume is the one you are talking about. It is going to be spectacular. It is opening in a former steakhouse near Westheimer and Gessner. The people opening this one have already talked to a lot of the higher stakes players at Post Oak and a lot of those games will be moving to the new place (5/5 NL, 5/10 NL and 5/5 PLO). Most of the players are on board because Post Oak hasn't been catering to them at all. Most of the floor sucks at Post Oak and in particular Tom is horribad. There was an entire convo with all the players about how bad he is recently and not one player likes him. Once this opens all the larger games will move. Bill and team have no one to blame but themselves. From the forced valet to the horrible floor decisions/running of the games it was only a matter of time.

I guess it has been a while since I played at POPC (was slammed much of December). When did they begin a mandatory valet?

And yes, I can see that being a problem in that postage stamp of a lot, especially with as few valets as I run into nowadays having the first clue what the third pedal is for...

Ahahahaha I think I found your hot button...PRISON JOKES!

I think you're forgetting the stacking charges...organized crime...money laundering. Those would be felonies.

At high stakes, Lake Charles still does a time rake...just like Vegas.

They originally did it for a week or so early on and due to complaints quit doing it. A month or so ago back they brought the valet people back in. They now block off all the spots with cones and pretty much require you to valet($8). If you buy 8 time cards they will validate your parking ticket though so the valet is free. I buy that many time cards anyway so the issue with me is I don't want them in my car or driving it. A lot of other players that drop in for an hour or two are getting robbed. It's a pure money grab by them to do this and I've heard a bunch of the players complaining about it. Yet another reason they will be losing players to new rooms soon when there are other choices in the area.

Again there is no doubt in my mind you are an underground game runner that has a vested interest. There is a big difference between a time rake or rake by pot size rake that is taken out of the pot from the players chips that are on the table. That rake and tips etc that come off the table reduce the amount of chips on the table.

At the places with the new model NO MONEY EVER COMES OFF THE TABLE for rake, tokes to dealers, tips for massages, tips for waitresses/game girls, insurance(in most of the underground games) etc. It's a huge difference for the better players and a major reason this model is much better for the player. The stacks stay deeper and every chip bought on the table stays there. This is a huge edge for the better players and why these games are so much better for them than a rake off the table model(or even time taken from chips on the table).

If you can't understand that you might want to take up another profession, but I think you do understand it and are concerned your livelihood has changed in the last 6 months since many of the players have gravitated to these places and your business is drying up.

That really is too bad...that would be enough to prompt me to turn around and leave. At one time, they had some of their management that was paying attention to this thread...hopefully that is still the case.

The cost isn't the issue for me...it is that I am not about to let one of their lot jockeys touch my vehicle.

Since they returned to the thread after claiming they were done, and in light of basically all of their posts being in this thread, I would definitely lean towards shill and/or a gimmick troll account. Their only other posts dealt with the issues with whatever his name is that was associated with Mint. It is someone with an axe to grind, that much seems definite.

I also find it humorous that they continue to grasp at legal straws that are so far beyond the pale as to be laughable. From the way they continue to ignore the questions, it is clear they have zero experience in criminal defense or even as a prosecutor. This is made even more clear when they try to link to various statutes by using some third-party compilation site as opposed to actually going to the specific Penal Code for a jurisdiction. On a few instances where I have replied from home, I admittedly went to the Texas Legislature's server to confirm something, but generally I am relying on my trusty spirals from the Texas District and County Attorney's Association (a far better resource than what West publishes given the ease of use and strike-through language showing what changed in a given Session).

Nope definitely not an underground game runner...though I'm greatly amused that you keep suggesting it. I'm guessing you're a shill for one of the legal rooms?

You're talking about something that has nothing to do with legality...more marketing really. While there are some players that certainly like that more money stays on the table, others hate having to come out of pocket on top of a losing session.

All of that is irrelevant when you're talking about legality though. On the table or off the table doesn't matter there. All of it's an economic benefit.

Done helping you spot the holes in your terrible arguments...but not done jerking your chain lol

Actually, that's a question of law, which is for the judge to answer (not the jury) which he will almost certainly answer in the affirmative (economic benefit=code violation).

What are you claiming is a question of law? The fact that this is NOT a felony in Texas? That a JURY is not going to impose pen time? Sentencing in Texas is determined by a jury in a jury trial, and that is ONLY if it moves to a sentencing phase of the trial process.

The questions to be answered would be contained in the jury instructions read BY the trial judge. My guess is you have never seen one of those documents...they are not typically a novella but they do often run six to twelve pages depending on how many elements of the law are being defined and what alternate elements or lesser-included offenses or affirmative defenses exist in a given case.

The statutes offer a LOT of room for competent defense counsel to have a field day which is why few prosecutors would even look to have this land on their plate. And, as noted, a sanctuary city that has punted most basic pot prosecutions (another misdemeanor offense) is not one with poker as a priority...I would easily see Travis County being in the same category given that they have historically been far more liberal than the neighbors to the north (Williamson) or to the south (Hays). Granted, both Williamson and Hays have softened in the past decade with the departures of Bradley and Wenk, but one is STILL better off when the case is in Travis than in the other two.

47.03 Gambling Promotion is a Class A Misdemeanor

...which can then get stacked with...

71.02 Organized Crime, a state jail felony

...which can then get stacked with...

34.02 Money Laundering, a felony of the first degree

Since you like to talk about eight-liners, I'm sure you've seen these sorts of stacking charges before with gambling cases. For everyone else, take a look at:
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-te...ey-6543784.php

You clearly don't understand 'stacking' and what it means in Texas criminal defense. Come back when you have some manner of demonstrable experience in the actual practice of criminal law.

To say nothing of the fact that you first have to show 'gambling' in order to even GET to any notion of 'gambling promotion' AND THEN you have to have a prosecutor willing to touch the case...and you CONTINUE to overlook that Kim has chosen to make Harris County a sanctuary city in which she ALSO is not prosecuting small quantity pot charges. Do you REALLY think that she is going to direct her staff to push for other misdemeanor charges if she is thumbing her nose at federal law violations?