Victim was Tom aka 3betpanda on Instagram. Prayers for a speedy recovery.

They were only able to get a few tournaments going and never could get the cash games going... Apparently selling to another group who wants to give it a try... Underground Legion is still running strong.

the pendulum is swinging back - people are slowly getting tired of the rake free games for at low stakes games - they are no beatable

The pendulum is swinging where Clive? Back to underground games? Your smart enough to know that these games are all illegal, some operate within certain guidelines that look and sound legit but no matter what no law says any person can benefit off of a poker game. I'm no expert like half the people on here are but I've been around a long time and know that it doesnt say certain poker games are legal. I think Law enforcement knows that these Clubs don't operate just to provide poker and a fun night they know they're in it for the money and sooner or later they will shut them down and make sure that it is on the news for the world to see. Just a matter of how soon.

yea i think we are starting to see underground and home games starting back up

Uhh

I checked out the Facebook page and website for Freeroll's Poker club... What are the black squares at each seat of the tables? They look like they could be tablets built in to the poker table, but I can't imagine what for?

They are, the idea is they can run ads on the tablets as a revenue source. They could also be used to show tourney info like blind timers but they weren't in use the time I went.

https://www.wilsoncountynews.com/new...er_parlor.html

That part of the State is VERY much a case of prosecutorial decisions based on whether you supported the incumbent in the previous election. Saw this first-hand with a client running eight-liners in one County but supporting the wrong candidate in the County where client resided. Machines were registered with the County where the game room was located. Rooms operated by persons who supported the incumbent carried on business as usual...

Also not addressed in the article was whether tips and fees were coming out of pocket or out of the chip stacks. As tends to be the norm, expect deferred dispositions if the cases even make it to court, meaning no convictions for any of the persons involved.

If people are incapable of 'beating' the rake-free games, then they are simply not trying.

by the time you pay the entry fee $10 average - maybe a membership fee - maybe an initiation fee and then couple either an hourly rate or a big "play all day" charge - you are not going to beat low level

example..
$10 door fee
$10 / hr seat charge (many are higher)
lets not even input a monthly membership or membership fee

so lets say you play 3 hrs for $40 or $13/hr or 4 bbs /hr - stats show that the average most profitable time frame to play is about 3-5 hrs - now of course you may tip - add at least 1-2 bbs /hr...can you beat 6 bbs / hr overhead?

Beatable or not, there were 13 tables running when I left POPC this weekend, including 4 or 5 5/5 PLO. Multiple 2K stacks at 1/3 games.

Unsure how long the bankrolls hold out, but there are no signs of slowing down that I see.

Even had someone playing live for the first time: I tried to slow them down, but they just burned off $500 in 20 mins and left (seemed to play very much like play money online, where calling down multiple streets with K high might be +EV).

Readers don't fool yourselves. Clivestraddle(Clive) has run an underground game out of his house for years that was unbeatable by most of the 1/3NL players that played it as his rake was higher than any of the "new places" He didn't seem worried about the players then. Now he suddenly is LOL.

These places are 100x's better for the players than any underground game in Houston and there isn't even a debate to be had on that. People can debate the legality issue(hopefully in another thread:) but there is no debate that this model is better for the players.

whether my game was beatable or not was not the issue..my game was for players that wanted a 1 table type of atmoshere...whether my game was beatable or not had no bearing on whether these models are unbeatable - sure my game was not beatable but it also gave a lot back that these models can not - I ran for over 2 decades - it seems to have stood the test of time of giving the people what they wanted and isnt that what these clubs are for?

Like all businesses - i had costs and wished to make an income - I can guaranteee that I was always fair with my players - if there were not enough players for a game at least 1 hr before the start of the game - no game - we had no house players - no staked players - bonuses of all sort and if a game got short handed - we cut off the rake and told the players to tip the dealer

what are the odds that in 20 years that any of these clubs will still be in business

I am and have been an advocate of these rake free games - they dont suit my style but frankly after 2 decades of running a game - and the fact that poker has declined over the years..i finally stopped hosting over 6 months ago

Clive you didn’t stop hosting cause you got tired of it. No one showed up and to say you had no horses is a lie cause I was a horse on your game at one point and so was a few others I know. You raked them to death how many players went thru your place to play again? Then you tired the hourly fee thing FAILED at that cause you couldn’t do it you had no player base and you didn’t wanna use any of your own money. Now it’s the online thing, in 3 months your gonna say online poker isn’t what it used to be. Of course it isn’t. Your self proclaimed God father of Houston poker cause you think you know all the gossip but now your out the loop and hear nothing! Your days are gone of running anything just face the facts. I’ve read your new thing on Facebook about someone backing a poker game I guess underground and we know it’s not you cause your to cheap to come out of your pocket and then you’ll want some finders fee. If that guy wants someone to run a game you have a few numbers on your phone that can run a successful underground 1 or 2 table game a few nights a week, some of the better game runners ain’t running no more there reputations aren’t the best but they have a player base who cares about getting LIKES it’s about getting $$$$. Mint poker has the best underground game aroundaybe the best ever.

Save for one session soon after they (POPC) had opened, I had that beat every single time that I have played there. I had one where I walked out with the same amount I walked in with. And if *I* can do it, then I know there are others who are doing it as well...

gtown - you might be talking about almost 15 yrs ago i had some players in the early years that I would sponsor but like any other business model it evolved - in the past 10 years or so the game evolved and yes like all games it had its ups and downs - no business lasts forever and neither did my interest become all consuming - I have been a trader in markets for 45 yrs and after this point I have pretty much retired from that business and concentrated on my retirement .

I never wanted more than 1 and sometimes 2 tables - at least I don't hide behind an anomous identity - everyone knows who I am.

I have one of the most massive player bases of all the games in houston but poker changed from 20 years ago and I moved on. To say it was "raked to death" - we were a reasonable amount for the time like any others and certain were not as high as move games in town. No game in houston lasted as long as mine and though I would consider starting back up - I can tell you that for only a few years was it a principle source of income. It was something I enjoyed - I gave quite a few people jobs over the years and made many friends.

As usual you get your facts wrong - the post on facebook is merely a thread to see what players are interested in - I have little interest in opening up a room myself at my age and frankly I saw very early that it was not sustainable for the amount of time and effort that would be required. Just because one decides not to continue a business means they failed - there are times where it is just not worth the time and effort.

At 60 years plus - there comes a time to concentrate on new things - poker has seen its hey day - i do laugh when you say I don't want to come out of pocket - obviously you have not had your own business - I only signed the "back of a check" for 3 years and from then on I always signed the front. Not bad for a career - to have a game last 20 years was an accomplishment enough for me.

Sure I am out of the loop - that's called LIFE - time moves on - things come and things go - I challenge you to see where you are at my age - I will probably be around to see it - I hope you make it that far too.

The 1/3nl games are very beatable. The games are so deep that it plays closer to a 2/5nl game imo.

The "legal" games also take alot less money from players than any other underground game which should translate into the average losing player losing less money/hr

don't really see how people can argue that underground raked games are better than the current membership model from a player's point of view

no casino in the world runs a time charge for low stakes games - I am just saying - it did not work for me - i never could make a profit in a rake free game - the best I did was make enough to give the dealer the small profit for the night and leave

I only know that over a sample size of about 40 games (20 of each) it was not profitable for me - there are players that could probably beat the game at 99% rake. They are that good - and i know that the straight charge not only does not work for me but it is so against my nature to pay an upfront charge that I would not play there.

I don't spend hours and hours playing poker - it is a social thing for me - I dont WANT to play at those stakes that will earn me the income I wish to make for my time and effort.

Btw...yes it is probably beatable at the 2/5 level and if it playing at that level - then it is NOT a 1/3 game but a 1/3 with heavy action.

How can somebody seriously say paying $10 an hour is worse than house taking $4-$10 a hand? More money stays on the table for one. I’ll play raked games when I can’t make drive to the poker hourly clubs.

its not just $10 per hr
there are virtually no bonuses - commonly in raked games there are "extras" - buy in for $500 get an extra $100

and all games are different - give a lot of bad players extra money and its a field day for the better players

Offer a game that caters to a "nit's" style and a loose player will hate it
Offer a game that caters to "I gambol you" players and the nits will generally hate it.

There are all sorts of reasons that a game is good for one player and not good for another.

When a game plays over your bankroll - you might be just outgunned
If a game plays tight - you maybe bored and just play mediocre hands out of sheer boredom.

After nearly 45 yrs of playing and 6 ex wifes - I am just too old to figure out poker or women- it is ....what it is and they are what they are

Lets put it in another analogy - WOMEN - one might consider one the most gorgeous thing that ever that walked the earth and another person might not even give her a second glance - same applies to men - except we are all pigs - its just a quesiton if you want to put lipstick on us...lol

I equate it to the following statement released on passenger safety

80% of the survivors of a plane crash stated they had identified where the exits were before the crash

what does this mean?

NOT A DAMN THING

maybe 100% of the people that died knew where the exits were..but they could not be polled because they were dead.

That might be the worst answer to any question I've ever read in my life.