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Old 12-10-2011, 03:43 AM   #1
AerialWave
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Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Games?

I observe a lot of games on pokerstars and see that there are many high stakes limit holdem specialists. I see some of these guys play 500/1000 limit but its almost always heads up or 3 handed. Then you have games like 50/100 and 100/200 limit that runs sometimes.

I would like to know if Phil Ivey or Daniel Negreanu decides to play in these games, would you say they would be the worst player assuming its a 6 max table? I think this might be silly for me to say this but the fact is i read that many of the high limit holdem specialists only play limit holdem, that pretty much makes me assume they will be better than an Ivey or Negreanu who plays all the games. Would this be a good assumption?


I did read that Daniel Negreanu use to play the 40/80 and 80/160 limit holdem games in the bellagio when he first started out but its pretty obvious those games has to be softer than any limit holdem game on stars 30/60+ easily. But does the fact that Daniel has a lot of limit holdem experience make him not the worst player at a 6 max high limit holdem table on stars?

I see guys like Stickman, brazzmonkey and a few others who seem to be all from Russia and it seems like the best limit holdem players live there for some reason. Is there a reason for this?

Excuse me if my post is idiotic. I know Ivey played on full tilt and played stakes like 1000/2000 limit holdem but i'm pretty sure those games had to be softer than a 100/200 limit holdem game on stars right? What about guys like Joe Cassidy or Liz Lieu. I know they are very good limit holdem players. Would they be easily the worst player at a 6 max limit holdem player against 5 winnings regulars on stars in a 6 max limit holdem game? I recalled Joe Cassidy sn was BUTCH ACIDY on stars and many referred him as one of the best limit holdem players from back then.
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Old 12-10-2011, 05:35 AM   #2
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

no one can be excellent as one canadian youngest player Daniel!
he is best on the world!!!
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Old 12-10-2011, 07:28 AM   #3
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

No. I don't think it would really matter b/c people don't have much of an edge in limit holdem. There are a lot of very solid players that could probably hold their own in a 6 handed game. If you're talking about a 3 handed game, it's a very different story. There are solid 40-80 players that I would say could do well in much bigger games, and 200-400+ players that couldn't consisently beat a 40-80. It's limit holdem your edge in a 6 handed game just isn't all that much even if you're Ivey, Negreanu, or Joe Smith for that reason. IMO it's the easiest game to be "good" at, but a much smaller percentage of players are able to play their "good" for an entire session.
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Old 12-10-2011, 08:48 AM   #4
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

if they played they'd be the worst in a very tough lineup or the 2nd worst in a tough lineup
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Old 12-10-2011, 09:12 AM   #5
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

Pretty simple explanation. The other players are hungrier and have statistically analyzed the EV outcomes of soo many plays and situations. They understand their edge is thin, and more easily recognize the spots in hands where their edge exist. Comes down to playing soo many hands, having a high cognitive aptitude, and rigorous statistical analysis of their games. Most of the top tier pro's like Ivey and Daniel realize they can find juicer more lucrative games in casinos or at the WSOP without playing well trained on-line specialist.
 
Old 12-10-2011, 10:27 AM   #6
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

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Originally Posted by JDalla View Post
if they played they'd be the worst in a very tough lineup or the 2nd worst in a tough lineup
This is at least 50% incorrect.
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Old 12-10-2011, 03:01 PM   #7
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

Would really like to know the line-up, where ivey is considered worst or second worst.
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Old 12-10-2011, 04:47 PM   #8
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

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Originally Posted by EarlyCuyler View Post
Most of the top tier pro's like Ivey and Daniel realize they can find juicer more lucrative money from sponsorship having run well at well publicised events early in the poker boom
.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:18 PM   #9
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

Didn't Ivey mop the floor with HossTBF?
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:06 PM   #10
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyCuyler View Post
Pretty simple explanation. The other players are hungrier and have statistically analyzed the EV outcomes of soo many plays and situations. They understand their edge is thin, and more easily recognize the spots in hands where their edge exist. Comes down to playing soo many hands, having a high cognitive aptitude, and rigorous statistical analysis of their games. Most of the top tier pro's like Ivey and Daniel realize they can find juicer more lucrative games in casinos or at the WSOP without playing well trained on-line specialist.
No,

Ivey went against the so-called best hu limit player and crushed him. Even that player amongst other greats say that he is an amazing player. Ivey didnt follow any of the guidelines that you stated above.
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Old 12-11-2011, 09:33 AM   #11
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

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Originally Posted by formula72 View Post
No,

Ivey went against the so-called best hu limit player and crushed him. Even that player amongst other greats say that he is an amazing player. Ivey didnt follow any of the guidelines that you stated above.
Are u talking about how he beat hoss over like a few thousand hands?

pretty sure a few HU specialists do regard him as a pretty good spot at the nosebleeds from what ive read.

Where is hasu when we need him?
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Old 12-11-2011, 09:37 AM   #12
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

Phil Ivey's HUHU strategy:

Step 1. Raise preflop in position
Step 2. C-bet the flop 100%
Step 3. ???????
Step 4. Profit
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Old 12-11-2011, 09:56 AM   #13
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

He stole that from me.
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Old 12-12-2011, 01:42 PM   #14
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

Quote:
Originally Posted by philnewall View Post
Phil Ivey's HUHU strategy:

Step 1. Raise preflop in position
Step 2. C-bet the flop 100%
Step 3. ???????
Step 4. Profit
send him a copy of your book
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Old 12-12-2011, 02:02 PM   #15
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Ivey had played the largest limit Holden games head up of all time 25k/50k if I am correct
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Old 12-12-2011, 04:08 PM   #16
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

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Originally Posted by LPK View Post
Ivey had played the largest limit Holden games head up of all time 25k/50k if I am correct
Your right he did. And if any sites out there want to pay me with players money I will play Beal or just about anyone 25-50k
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:15 PM   #17
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

p sure they played 100k 200k
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:05 PM   #18
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

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Originally Posted by Gildwulf View Post
send him a copy of your book
Heh, he's rich enough to afford his own copy.

Yes Ivey won huge against Beal but from the snippets in Michael Craig's book it seems Beal was a very poor player by modern HU-LHE standards. For example a hand against Todd where he 8-bets the turn with two pair and his complete obsession with preventing tells.
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Old 12-13-2011, 01:34 AM   #19
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

Pretty sure absolutely no mathemtical knowledge whatsoever is needed to beat a game where basically gigantic conkers wins the day! Ivey crushes anyone, Einstein, Ungar, Jesus, even Jesus's pappy, God. Anyone.
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Old 12-13-2011, 05:55 AM   #20
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

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Ivey had played the largest limit Holden games head up of all time 25k/50k if I am correct
if your talking about the coperation verses Andy Beal then i believe Ivey played Andy Beal for $60K/120K limit holdem, got the coperation out of a big hole. There's a book called 'the banker, the professor and the sucide king' which is based around that game. Its a good read.
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:05 AM   #21
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

Epic first post OP even if its a bit all over the place. Ivey's played all those limit specialists on the $500/1000 limit holdem tables maybe 2 years ago but i think he stopped playing them because they didnt give action in any other game so he just stopped playing them. As for Daniel he was the first person to offer high stakes limit poker maybe 4 years on his former poker site 'fullcontactpoker'. He played 'allthewomen' which was patrik antonius and a group of young guys who called themselves 'dreamclown'. Daniel ran pretty badly against both and according to Patrik he gave away a lot of online tells like timed and clicking tells. Daniel's always been a bit of a online punching bag but i think if he got these high stakes limit holdem specialists across the table he would beat them because his main game was limit holdem. Always wondered who 'dreamclown' was, guessing it might have been durrrrr and his crew or maybe just a bunch of kids who all ran like god and played with the whole bankroll on the table, anybody remember these games on Fullcontactpoker?.
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:10 AM   #22
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

^^^ Daniel verses Dreamclown almost 6 years ago...dang how time flies!

http://www.poker-king.com/poker-king...php?article=77
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:18 AM   #23
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

I have actually thought about this topic a lot. I am no longer a high stakes reg, but I used to play mid/high a lot, and have played with a lot of the now top guys, and my hunch is that Phil or Daniel would be a dog in a 6handed stars 200/400 game if there were no recreational players.

The current top online LHE guys have just done such a wicked deep job of getting well balanced games that diverge at the right times to attack their opponents exploitable weaknesses, while at the same time maintaining a balanced game so well that they themselves will be very hard to exploit.


I think DN is a great guy and a great poker player, but I'd put money on the other guys hands down. Ivey, it's closer, but I'd still take the current online pro's.
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Old 12-20-2011, 01:37 PM   #24
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

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Originally Posted by formula72 View Post
No,

Ivey went against the so-called best hu limit player and crushed him. Even that player amongst other greats say that he is an amazing player. Ivey didnt follow any of the guidelines that you stated above.
Ivey also openly admits the German player(Ihatejuice) is superior in limit hold'em.
 
Old 12-20-2011, 05:41 PM   #25
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Re: Would Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu be an underdog in the Stars High Limit Holdem Cash Game

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Ivey also openly admits the German player(Ihatejuice) is superior in limit hold'em.
Yea that's what Ivey said, then he crushed Ihate for 500k+
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