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Old 07-28-2010, 02:32 PM   #26
Tryptamean
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heisenb3rg View Post
Ya its definitly unethical what he does...
The worst being constantly sitting in games he has no intention of playing (even once booted), just in case a fish drops in.
please tell me why this is unethical?
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Old 07-28-2010, 02:47 PM   #27
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

I'm not sure its unethical, but it shouldn't be allowed. You are for sure a smart enough guy to understand why.
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Old 07-28-2010, 02:54 PM   #28
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

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Originally Posted by hoppscot22 View Post
I'm not sure its unethical, but it shouldn't be allowed. You are for sure a smart enough guy to understand why.
Go after the sites making the rules then.
Silly to go after a guy taking perfect advantage of an exploitable system.
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Old 07-28-2010, 03:03 PM   #29
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

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I'm not sure its unethical, but it shouldn't be allowed. You are for sure a smart enough guy to understand why.
that's the thing, most posts in this thread pertain to etiquette. i guess its just a pet peeve of mine when people confuse the two.

and if its bad etiquette to do it to the extreme he does, which I agree it is, then its gotta be a blurry line.

for instance, if I know there is a major donk who likes to bounce around tables who is lurking, then you can be damn sure I'll be sitting out in partially filled games so that I'm guaranteed a seat if the donk comes by. I dont think that's poor etiquette at all, just solid lobby skills and looking out for #1.
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Old 07-28-2010, 03:36 PM   #30
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

Every game will be filled with 6 people all sitting out then. This has happened before, and we just ended up with like 14 tables like 10 of them full with everyone sitting out.
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Old 07-28-2010, 03:38 PM   #31
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

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Originally Posted by Tryptamean View Post
that's the thing, most posts in this thread pertain to etiquette. i guess its just a pet peeve of mine when people confuse the two.

and if its bad etiquette to do it to the extreme he does, which I agree it is, then its gotta be a blurry line.

for instance, if I know there is a major donk who likes to bounce around tables who is lurking, then you can be damn sure I'll be sitting out in partially filled games so that I'm guaranteed a seat if the donk comes by. I dont think that's poor etiquette at all, just solid lobby skills and looking out for #1.
And then guys like me and hopp are heis are going to come in to block them and fill those tables and there are going to be 10 6-max games with 6 guys sitting out in them. It's pretty ridiculous having all these tables with 4 or 5 guys sitting out waiting for the table jumper to jump. How about just not have these half-filled tables, then let the jumper make a move to a 100% empty table, and it's a free for all of lobby skills to see who finds him first and gets the seat? Or the other equally ******ed solution is everyone gets their "own" table and there's 20 tables with one guy sitting at each of them. Also ******ed to look at in the lobby, tho at least it makes it a "fairer" lottery.
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Old 07-28-2010, 03:42 PM   #32
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryptamean View Post
that's the thing, most posts in this thread pertain to etiquette. i guess its just a pet peeve of mine when people confuse the two.

and if its bad etiquette to do it to the extreme he does, which I agree it is, then its gotta be a blurry line.

for instance, if I know there is a major donk who likes to bounce around tables who is lurking, then you can be damn sure I'll be sitting out in partially filled games so that I'm guaranteed a seat if the donk comes by. I dont think that's poor etiquette at all, just solid lobby skills and looking out for #1.
same (although I generally just spawn new tables rather than sit out, but I would do both on occasion.)
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Old 07-28-2010, 03:52 PM   #33
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoppscot22 View Post
Every game will be filled with 6 people all sitting out then. This has happened before, and we just ended up with like 14 tables like 10 of them full with everyone sitting out.
This.

We need open seats for the fish to sit.. If everyone did what stick did, FISH would have to be put on waiting lists and then quit. In fact ive seen this happen multiple times.

It's not ethics im directly concerned about. Its what hopscott and schneids are talking about.
Game preservation and creating a sustainable environment.
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Old 07-28-2010, 03:56 PM   #34
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

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Originally Posted by Heisenb3rg View Post
This.

We need open seats for the fish to sit.. If everyone did what stick did, FISH would have to be put on waiting lists and then quit. In fact ive seen this happen multiple times.

It's not ethics im directly concerned about. Its what hopscott and schneids are talking about.
Game preservation and creating a sustainable environment.

Also worth noting IMO is that high stakes games have (generally) gotten to a point where "lobby skills" are a very important factor in success. Hope everyone has other career options lined up (that or doesn't mind grinding 30/60 and stuff.)
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Old 07-28-2010, 04:05 PM   #35
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by henholland View Post
Go after the sites making the rules then.
Silly to go after a guy taking perfect advantage of an exploitable system.
I also agree with this...

Bitching at st1ck would do absolutly nothing.
I don't feel much, if any bitterness toward him because if it were not for st1ckman, it's a matter of time before someone else takes advantage of it.

The site should implement a system which discourages the stuff he's doing.

But they don't really have much incentive to, unless a lot of people get pissed off...

In terms of "ethics" it's definitly grey.

I actually believe there is a spectrum for effecient exploitation within any flawed system.

I beleive its best for everyone to be exploiting something, almost everyone, no one, or 1-2 people.. If everyone exploits something, it can generally ruin the system or put into an equilibrium state.

If it's ruined, whoever created the system has a ton of incentive to fix it and the loopholes become glaringly obvious.

There is a critical number however, where a lot of damage can be done/structural imbalance, but it's not enough for clear understating of what's being exploited, how to fix it and the extent of the damage.
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Old 07-28-2010, 04:14 PM   #36
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

gentleman's agreement: all w/ college degrees go off and get jobs. The rest of us can stay.
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Old 07-28-2010, 04:39 PM   #37
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

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Originally Posted by Heisenb3rg View Post
The site should implement a system which discourages the stuff he's doing.

But they don't really have much incentive to, unless a lot of people get pissed off...
im curious what you think such a system would look like?

fwiw i dont think the problem is severe enough to warrant any major changes, perhaps in NL it is already bad enough, but I've never seen anybody suggest a reasonable solution.
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Old 07-28-2010, 04:55 PM   #38
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

a cage match would settle all of this
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Old 07-28-2010, 05:04 PM   #39
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

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Originally Posted by Tryptamean View Post
im curious what you think such a system would look like?

fwiw i dont think the problem is severe enough to warrant any major changes, perhaps in NL it is already bad enough, but I've never seen anybody suggest a reasonable solution.
#1 If someone sits into a game and does not play a hand, boot them out much quicker than if they do play a hand. If they get booted out twice at the same table, ban them from that table for 5 minutes.

#2 If the game has "stopped" and everyone is sitting out, boot everyone out except the person who's not sitting out after a certain time limit (5-10 minutes or something).

#3 Limit the number of tables someone can be sitting at by themselves at a particular limit to 2 per table type. This includes tables that they have not played a hand at where there is multiple people sititng out at.

#4
If two players play a game heads up, and the game fills up, those who played heads up gain additional FPP's for the duration of that game perportional to the amount of hands they played up to a maximum amount (say additional 10-20% rakeback max).
If one player sits out for more than 1 min, the FPP bonus gets reverted.

THIS ONLY APPLIES TO 6-MAX BECAUSE FULL RING GAMES ARE GAY

Last edited by Heisenb3rg; 07-28-2010 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 07-28-2010, 05:08 PM   #40
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

Why does anyone give a **** about what Stickman does?
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Old 07-28-2010, 10:28 PM   #41
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

St1ckman OWNED this thread and he didn't even make a post. Now that is legendary
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Old 07-28-2010, 10:52 PM   #42
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

Still Russian imo.
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:58 PM   #43
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

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Originally Posted by neverheebomg1 View Post
chinamanifag, stop posting, keep posting and i will cut ur ears off when i find u
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:00 AM   #44
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

I read somewhere that DERB moved to Russia.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:06 AM   #45
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

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Originally Posted by HokieHovito View Post
I hope to one day to climb the ladder just to be able to tell people I gave money to st1ckman

He's like 2005-6 Kobe Bryant, you know after the rape, before the non shaq rings, just hated by everyone and still dropping 50 every other night
If you arent leveling you might want to reevaluate your life.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:32 AM   #46
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heisenb3rg View Post
#1 If someone sits into a game and does not play a hand, boot them out much quicker than if they do play a hand. If they get booted out twice at the same table, ban them from that table for 5 minutes.

#2 If the game has "stopped" and everyone is sitting out, boot everyone out except the person who's not sitting out after a certain time limit (5-10 minutes or something).

#3 Limit the number of tables someone can be sitting at by themselves at a particular limit to 2 per table type. This includes tables that they have not played a hand at where there is multiple people sititng out at.

#4
If two players play a game heads up, and the game fills up, those who played heads up gain additional FPP's for the duration of that game perportional to the amount of hands they played up to a maximum amount (say additional 10-20% rakeback max).
If one player sits out for more than 1 min, the FPP bonus gets reverted.

THIS ONLY APPLIES TO 6-MAX BECAUSE FULL RING GAMES ARE GAY
I think of these #3 is the most potentially actionable. #s 1 and 2 will most often end up annoying recreational and/or smaller stakes players playing in games where the type of shenanigans this thread discusses don't occur. You may as well just implement a different set of lobby rules for 50/100+ games but that seems awkward and pretty hard to spin as a software "feature".

#4 is definitely a good idea from our perspective but I imagine Stars has quite extensive research and data on their FPP system and they may have good reasons to not take this approach. I think UB was the first to do that a long time ago but its hard to compare how successful it is there due to the paid props who start games anyway on that site.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:40 AM   #47
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

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Originally Posted by Schneids View Post
And then guys like me and hopp are heis are going to come in to block them and fill those tables and there are going to be 10 6-max games with 6 guys sitting out in them. It's pretty ridiculous having all these tables with 4 or 5 guys sitting out waiting for the table jumper to jump. How about just not have these half-filled tables, then let the jumper make a move to a 100% empty table, and it's a free for all of lobby skills to see who finds him first and gets the seat? Or the other equally ******ed solution is everyone gets their "own" table and there's 20 tables with one guy sitting at each of them. Also ******ed to look at in the lobby, tho at least it makes it a "fairer" lottery.
Your position is admirable but its just completely unrealistic to hope that every winning player (where 'winning' = better than the fish in question in this example) will agree. It only takes one dissenter to screw up the whole system. Also, its worth pointing out that most fish do not sit alone at empty tables, they join games that are running.

I guess I could have just quoted HenHolland's post since he said it best, any energy used to improve the situation is best spent by convincing Stars it is a +EV business decision to change the software.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:31 PM   #48
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

High stakes players in casinos get whatever they want as far as perks and I don't see why Stars should be any different. The worst that can happen is stars says no.
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Old 07-29-2010, 02:56 PM   #49
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

One time a game became 3 handed with me st1ck and a fish. Iirc it was to be my button on the first hand and his big blind. St1ck insta sat out and back in. the next hand dealt he got the button and I got the small blind. This made me angry, but I was impressed / surprised he even knew the software would behave this way.
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Old 07-29-2010, 03:40 PM   #50
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Re: official stickman discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by henholland View Post
Go after the sites making the rules then.
Silly to go after a guy taking perfect advantage of an exploitable system.
Completely agree. Altho this behavior does not agree with my morals, stickman is entitled to gain any edge he can get. Until the sites do something to stop this, everyone should keep their mouths shut.
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