Strictly from a wealth creation perspective a corporate job for 100k is usually a lot more valuable than 100k from poker. Most corporate jobs come with health insurance, 401k match and other perks like company phones or cars and life insurance. Also a 100k corporate job ties up zero dollars of your capital.

I would guess in most cases 65 to 75 k gross in the corporate world is the same as 100k from poker since you need to pay for insurance taxes retirement etc. 100k from poker feels like a lot more since nothing is with held. I would suspect but do not know that many young poker pros skip insurance and under represent their income for taxes. This can be a positive in the short run but catastrophic in the long run.

Also not all corporate jobs suck. There are plenty that can be interesting and enjoyable. In my experience most people are unwilling to take the risk/change to move into an are that suits them. The get a half decent gig and live for the weekends.

For me personally getting to 100k in the corporate world has been easier than becoming a winning player. That said I have ran good in the corporate world. Every successful person catches some breaks. In my opinion there are many more breaks to catch in the working world than poker.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Its been a long time since I've snipp'd a post, and I just snipp'd your post.

It was all very good, but this part is prolly least understood, and most important. This is what I was trying to say with my cashflow statement.

In my experience, I'm not entirely sure a corporate income is that much more valuable than a poker income, or if it is more valuable at all. Here's my experience:

My healthcare insurance covered through an employer was great, but I still pay my part of the cost monthly and I need to clear a deductible and pay a copay for treatments I decide to get. For example, I had to go to an ER through an ambulance and the ambulance ride alone cost me a couple of hundred dollars out of pocket after insurance.

So not only is most health insurance plans set up to disincentivize you from using it to get treatment, but if you do get treatments that are expensive enough for insurance to really be helpful, you're still paying thousands upon thousands for it.

After I made the transition to poker, I've found that I spend far less money on healthcare by simply traveling to other countries that have first rate healthcare but none of the mark up that America has. In many developed nations, you can just pay out of pocket for your healthcare and still pay less than you would in America with a great insurance plan.

And I believe that 401k matching only really bump your salary by a few percentage points vs poker. Most companies match 50% on the dollar for around 5% or 6%. That's a great perk but it's only good for an additional 2.5-3% of your salary. And this money is also not completely liquid and free money that you can decide how to best use. So while you can invest it into some index fund, you can't take it out and put it into even more productive use without incurring penalties that further reduces the perk relative to your income.

And also, there is the issue of taxes. I have many European pro friends who do not get taxed on their poker winnings because these do not count as taxable income in their countries. So for them, earning $100k is getting the same take home pay as someone who earns 40%-50% more. And these people still get the benefits of universal healthcare. Combined with generally lower income in Europe, poker as a profession becomes even more attractive of an option for these kids. For American players, for those who declare their taxes, they can at least avoid state and local taxes by picking where they reside and play poker.

So yea, I'm not entirely sold on a traditional job's income being worth more than a poker income. Especially for poker players who are smart with their finances and know how to reduce their tax burden and understand how to use their flexible schedule and free time to more actively invest their money in higher return investments.

I can't speak to Europe as I have no reference for that. If you have universal health care and poker income is not taxed I would assume poker income would be greater than corporate income.

This is not the case in the USA.

In my opinion in the USA it is not close. If you pay your taxes and by private insurance those take a bigger chunk out of almost all self employed people than those that work for most mid to large sized companies.

On top of that people rarely fully account for the perks that come with a 100k job. Not all of these are equal for sure but if I account for all the perks my 110k job probably is closer to 175-185 k in total comp. This is pretty common.

If the measure is only wealth creation you have to win more at poker than make at most corporate jobs in the USA. There are a lot of personal factors that go into that choice as to what is best for an individual and you can make plenty at poker invest and do very well.

This is a somewhat silly debate as the factors that really matter are individual. My point is that most people greatly underestimate the benefits that are pretty standard in the corporate world.

Also it is hard to travel to cheaper heath care when you are having a heart attack or get hit by a bus. It is some of the infrequent but catastrophic events that humans do a bad job of accounting for. I hope I never need my free company life insurance but I am glad it is there for my kids.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Could you do a simple breakdown of what kind of perks this extra $65-75k consists of? I'm having a very hard time coming up with the math on this. And also, what are you paying in taxes for the state/local level.

And you're right, poker players' lifestyle and background vary quite a bit so it's hard to do a direct comparison, but in my case, I'm a young American who hardly lives in America anymore and spend most of my time traveling. I've actually traveled to countries/cities specifically for high quality medical care before, and the costs are still a fraction of what it would have cost me in America for the costs I mentioned (deductible clearance, copay, my part of the insurance cost, and marked up prices of healthcare).

The 65 is an estimate and might be a touch high. Depends on what you count. I do not have all the figures at hand but a rough outline is:

10-25k in bonus profit sharing. This obv depends on the year.

10k car (up to 50k new every 5 years)

10k gas insurance auto maintenance

7k 401k match 100% up to 6%

80% of premiums for family health, vision dental. Having a family makes this number much different than being young and single. I would have to check but 12k ish

Free life insurance for 1x salary
Subsidized added 150 k in term. Not sure what the exact value on this would be.

Short and long term disability 100% of premium paid by company. Again not sure but a few k a year for sure

5k in tuition/training allowance

Company smart phone and tablet with unlimited data. 1-2k

Gym membership

Access to on site health clinic for free. Nice but would count this in the insurance.

A bunch of small stuff (Xmas ham etc company swag)

Some travel perks (keep points and link personal trips with work ones). Also I eat some nice meals and drink good whiskey with customers that is technically work but consider it a perk.

The employer portion of social security that a self employed person pays. This will be different outside USA but worth 5-7k inside it.

Not trying to say all packages are like mine but I know mine is not unheard of / super special. If you are living mostly abroad and can deduct the first 90k or whatever of income this changes things substantially.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As for taxes I have some other personal things that impact this so not really comparable to what you describe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Roughly what do you do for work? Obv your situation is a good one especially if you mostly like your work. It's not super easy to get to that level though and it will usually come with it's own challenges along the way like dealing with bosses/coworkers you don't enjoy working with, probably having to do a fair bit of stuff you dislike doing, and generally a lot of stress/pressure. Poker obv has a different and very real kind of stress as well but most people who are successful at poker over the long run are practicing proper br mgmt and playing in good games which makes things a lot less stressful most of the time.

Your perks especially for a salary that is just above $100k is pretty special and out of the ordinary. Things like $20k per year worth of car and car related perks is unheard of to probably every one in this thread. What kind of work are you involved with that they would give you this much in car related perks?

And just to bring more clarity to those reading about these perks, things like 401k matching are not 100% guaranteed. Many companies require you to stay with the company for up to 6 years before the matched amount becomes "yours". This becomes a golden handcuff that prevents you from pursuing better opportunities lest you are willing to give up up to 6 years worth of matched 401k that may amount to tens of thousands of dollars.

I General Manager for a manufacturing unit.

My car perk is better than most. But even if it was a company low end Honda Civic it would still be worth quite a bit.

Yes I paid my dues and no you can't come off the street and get a job like mine. Though you don't walk in a card room and beat 5 10 on your first trip either generally.

I am not trying to make the point that jobs are better than poker. That depends on the individual.

My point is there is a bunch of added comp that is not so important to a 20 something but really matter for wealth creation and wealth protection. Some of these things get more valuable as you get closer to 40.

Anyone thinking about giving up a job/career for poker should consider these more long term things before making a choice.

In my opinion people fail to account for these things properly because you don't need much health care at 23. Walking away from a 401k match of 1200 does not seem to matter much when you are starting out at 38k a year or whatever.

The value of these things grow over time. Especially so if you decide you want to have a family.

If you pass on these paths when you are young most of these options get closed off to you later.

Everyone's situation is different and they need to do what works for them but if you say my hourly at 1 3 is better than my job at 22 years old and that is all you consider you are doing it wrong in my opinion.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just curious, at what age did you break $100k and started getting these perks?

It took me 6 years to break 100k. I got the car a few years later.
I have run good in my career. But my field is very vanilla and not thought to be high paying compared to tech finance law etc.

I did go to grad school. Mostly because I was not done double majoring in beer and girls. Also because I did not think I would go back to school once out.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Icanadd is crushing itt. Having a real job is the way to go if you want more than living like a bachelor/student your entire life.

I want to say the average career span of most pros is less than 4 years. That comes from the simple fact that at that point the heater has worn off and their hourly has dropped back to earth... meaning they are making far, far less than 100k along with all of the negative implications of being self employed.

Besides one other poster, I've never seen anyone post about the true variance of live poker. I encourage everyone to go play on a soft site and truly grind it out to get a feel. And no I'm not talking about playing 4nl and then projecting that to 5/T live. This week I played against insanely soft competition (~6k hands) and lost roughly ~20 all ins excluding standard online bvb spots.

It's always been this way, a massive grind despite playing against incredibly stupid competition. I honestly don't think anyone can handle that day in day out... and to the pros that say it never happens... well they aren't really pros they're just riding the heater.

Agree with everything you say. And I definitely think sticking on the normal career path is better for most people. There are certain aspects that can come into play that do make some of these things less of an issue though. Mainly that if you are in a serious relationship it makes things like health care way easier. I was paying a lot more for insurance when I had to buy it privately but now that I can be under my fiance's workplace plan it's the same as if I was getting it thru a normal job myself. Obv not everyone is in a serious relationship, but if you are gonna be starting a family you will be so that cost at least won't be as crazy as it would be if you were both self employed. There's a few other things as well where having a partner with a regular job makes things easier/cheaper for the self employed person.

But yeah I've posted on 2p2 before, although I'm very happy with my time spent playing poker professionally I do have times where I think about whether I should go back into a normal career path before I get much older (I'm 29). I do think I'm a bit different than a lot of poker players though in that I have my degree, have some decent connections I could use, and I save/invest my money which makes everything easier when you do want to move on from poker. The resume gap is I'd say the biggest downside people should think hard about before quitting to play poker. I've definitely lived a way happier and flexible life so far though by choosing this path.

Talked about it a little above but you don't have to live like a bachelor/student your whole life just because you play poker. It can make things a bit harder but if you are actually doing things correctly and saving/investing your money than you'll be fine. And if you aren't making enough money to be saving a decent amount of money than you obv shouldn't be playing poker for a living. No matter what your job is you need to be saving for your future. And all the downsides of being a poker player are the same as any self employed work. You just need to make sure you are actually the type of person who can self regulate and succeed as a self employed person.

Sorry but only a poker pro / someone with very little intelligence would say poker pro == any other self employed person. It's apples to oranges man.

And face it, the majority of poker pros out there are living in poker houses / student style living who can't afford anything better.

lol it's not apples and oranges in the context of what we were talking about, which is the additional costs you face as a self employed person.

And I don't even know how your second sentence even matters. Firstly you don't actually know it to be true, it's just your opinion. And secondly everyone agreed that someone who can barely afford to get by should not be playing poker for a living.

It is apples to oranges in the context of this discussion. Again, only a stupid poker pro or someone who's never run a business would even mention them in the same sentence.

And yes, my second sentence matters. Dude 98% of all poker pros are just getting by / one downswing away from busto / shooting themselves in the cock by choosing poker over a real job. It's not even up for discussion. And in the context of this discussion it's relevant because telly won't be the 2% that are better off playing poker for a living. I mean you pretty much have to be an ex con or be the next durrr.

In case you need it spelled out... I'm saying every single 2/5 and 5/T grinder out there are morons/ life fish for choosing what they do... and that the mystical 10bb/hr winrate is a lie and not a valid arguing point in favor of going pro.

lol

This is harsh and a bit of a hyperbole but generally true for the vast majority of people.

But yes, there's maybe a few hundred players worldwide who grind primarily live games and maybe 10x that who grind various online sites who live far better lifestyles than they could live in most normal careers.

The basic advice here is the type of people who succeed at poker are those who can excel at various other mental tasks. So a simple question to ask yourself if you've ever mastered something mentally challenging and competitive enough to be in the top 1% or 0.1% of your peers. If you have, then you will have a high likelihood of succeeding in poker depending on your emotional stability and temperament in dealing with variance. But if you've never in your life worked really hard to become truly great at something competitive, then it is extremely unlikely you'll succeed in poker.

So treat this as game selection in a game of life. Poker is a bad game to be in, regular jobs are easier games. The reward in poker is higher than most regular jobs (in terms of money, freedom, lack of office politics, amount of time you can sleep, lack of responsibility, etc), but you're not likely to be the one who succeeds.

Boy this thread went downhill fast


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Interesting discussion ITT recently. Been good to read.



Trip to MDL & MGMNH over this past long weekend. Had a terrible session of making close to 0 hands on Saturday @ 2/5 @ MDL. Love the venue, was in a great game as well, just terrible result. Lost heaps.



Hoping to turn it around on Sunday @ the 5/T at MGM. Got into another good game. Wouldn't say it was a great game, but slightly above average of the 5/T lineups I've been in. Cate Hall was in the game which was quite interesting. I don't really know much about her other than her beef with (Dentale?) I think? Which was public on twitter.



Anyway, had our career biggest losing session which sucked. I didn't feel as bad about it as I probably should have. Still not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Ate at that awesome Chinese spot which I always forget the name of. FUEGO as it was last time. Gonna look through some pics and post some more later.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Curious to see how much you managed to torch in a single 5/10 session. Big losing sessions always suck but how you feel as the end is usually based on how you played. Chances are you played reasonably well if you feel okay about it afterwards.

Glgl

about ~500bb. Didn't play great, also never made a hand. The two times I made a hand, my opponent was able to make a better hand. The one good thing that came out of this is that's it's been awhile since I realized how important it is to lose the minimum when you aren't making hands. Good time to revisit this part of my game :-)