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Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

12-21-2017 , 08:41 PM
I also think and agree 100% with your thinking regarding folding to a raise. This might be exploitable play but not enough to matter. Keeps variance low in addition to being correct play most of the time.

Dunno if you know the Baluga Theorem. But it’s basically that. From an old poster on 2+2 screen name Beluga Whale. His theorem, more specifically, refers to seriously reevaluating 1pr hands when faced with a turn raise.
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12-21-2017 , 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJT
I’ve noticed this in many of your HHs. Often posters will remark about missed value etc. But, I think often your play lessens your variance. So, much of your win rate is perhaps a misnomer. Much of it seems to be minimizing your losses. Not taking risks dispite what might be/seem correct odds. Fold and move on. Or check rather than bet. Whatever.

You also seem to be careful at quiting sessions when running bad and cutting losses.

FWIW, I think you take more chances in 1/2 than 2/5. Some HHs from 2/5, I think you would play different in 1/2 and vice versa. And doesn’t seem because game conditions, more a matter of lower variance in real $ amounts (instead of relative bb amounts). This seems evident if not from your HHs then for sure in your buyins. 1/2 seems 150bb buyins vs 2/5 sometimes even 80bb buys ins. I recall when you started posting you’d buy in 300$ in 2/5.

I’m not critiquing one way or other. Just pointing out what seems. And fwiw.
This is 100% true that I "take more chances" and in general play more aggressively at 1/2. I double barrel more. I bet turns sometimes when I would check behind playing 2/5 and things like that. My raise sizes are much bigger in terms of BBs as well but thats because 1/2 players call more often and Im normally looking to get HU or 3 ways.

Ive noticed it myself and thought about it a lot but I cant decide if the same type play would work as well at 2/5 or not. I mean Im already pretty aggro at 2/5. People comment on it quite a bit both to me and at the other end of the table under their breath but I can still hear sometimes. Im not sure if I hold back sometimes at 2/5 because of the larger amounts of money or if its because I dont think the plays will work as well with better players at 2/5. Also, as you noted Im not as deep at 2/5. The max buy in is 100BBs at 2/5 but 150BBs at 1/2.

The actual money doesnt bother me at all. So I don't think that's it. Im leaning more towards being worried that it wont work as well at 2/5 but Im still undecided. Ive actually started bluffing considerably more recently at 2/5 and Im absolutely crushing lately so maybe it has helped.
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12-21-2017 , 10:26 PM
Here's a couple hands from today. A couple show me getting more aggro.

1) 3 EP limps. I limp 5h4h in MP. We go 7 to the flop.

Flop ($35) Jh9c5s. Checked around
Turn ($35) 9h. EP bets $15 and gets 1 call. I raise to $60. My raise looks a hell of a lot more like I have a 9 than EPs bet or the other guys call does.

The button cold calls my raise and everyone else folds.

River ($185) Qh. I bet $100.....He calls with 7h8h. Meh. I still like my play. IMO the button's cold call of a bet, a call and a raise with a FD and a gutter on a paired board when EP may repop it is pretty bad.

2) EP opens to $20. He's semi decent. Probably a $25/hr winner but spews at random weird times after playing tight for a while. I call KsQc OTB HU.

Flop ($45) Ts6d3c. He bets $25. He pretty much auto Cbets $25 like this every time. It means nothing. His range is also wide. He can have any pp, suited connectors, broadway cards..ect. I min raise to $50. This is what lots of people do with a set. If he has a real hand like KK/QQ/JJ he has to be a little worried and will "call and evaluate". I hate that term but that's what most people do.

Turn ($145) Ad. He checks. OK, time to give him something to evaluate. There are very few hands he can have that include an Ace. I dont think hes calling my min raise with AK/AQ so I bet $85 like the ace doesnt bother me at all. I dont think he's continuing with anything other than AA/TT/AT. He instafolds.

3) EP opens $15. The button calls. I call BB 6h4h.

Flop ($45) 4d5d4c. I check. EP checks. The button almost instantly bets $35. Im putting him on a pp like 66-99. It looks like he really doesnt want an overcard to fall based on timing of his bet. He didnt even think about it at all.

I check raise to $100. Most people wont raise if they really have a 4 so I think he may call depending on how high his medium pp is and I dont want to just call with the board so wet. EP folds. Button tank/folds.

4) EP opens $15 and gets 2 calls. I call Ac4c in the BB.

Flop ($60) 7c2c5s. I lead $25. EP folds. MP folds. The SB calls.
Turn ($110) 8h. I bet $95. He folds.
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12-22-2017 , 12:54 AM
H1 is fine but can you explain why you like X/r over X/c? I think both are okay but if you X/r turn and flush comes and you bet you're in a sad spot Vs a raise (just have to fold basically). Calling plays well as a bluff catcher

H2 looks very wp, Def standard line Vs high flop cbet ABC aggro types.

H3 looks fine but I think this is one of best 4x to call with all the draws you block and you can potentially X/r turn or rover for more value

H4 I don't have much of a leading range, would X/r this combo but if you have a wide leading range for whatever reason this is fine I guess. Curious why you like leading over X/r here, I assume to get value from worse flush draws and hand is good enough to shove over a raise, plus you're assuming too many calls rather than too many folds.
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12-22-2017 , 01:20 AM
Hand #1 - and you call me insane for my bluffs. With reads I can see this play. And in general.

Hand #2 - I think he can call with a hand like AK AQ. But since you block those you can bluff bet here like you did. But I wouldn't play KQo vs an UTG tight open OOP without reads.

Hand #3 - Don't like calling with 64s without reads in that spot. That $15 raise screams small PP. With 98s you have great equity and 6 outs even if you miss. With 64s you have 5 if you hit. Rank is important here. But again with reads. Otherwise played well.

Hand #4 - Good preflop call. If you had A4o I would consider 3b bluffing vs a weak open from EP. Good the way you played it. You could also XR here too. Why the weak lead? Where you planning on bet/3b?
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12-22-2017 , 09:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefirmative
H1 is fine but can you explain why you like X/r over X/c? I think both are okay but if you X/r turn and flush comes and you bet you're in a sad spot Vs a raise (just have to fold basically). Calling plays well as a bluff catcher

H2 looks very wp, Def standard line Vs high flop cbet ABC aggro types.

H3 looks fine but I think this is one of best 4x to call with all the draws you block and you can potentially X/r turn or rover for more value

H4 I don't have much of a leading range, would X/r this combo but if you have a wide leading range for whatever reason this is fine I guess. Curious why you like leading over X/r here, I assume to get value from worse flush draws and hand is good enough to shove over a raise, plus you're assuming too many calls rather than too many folds.
1) I didnt check raise. EP bet and got a call. Then I raised from MP. I didnt think EP would only bet $15 into a $35 pot if he had a 9 with a FD on the board. Its even less likely that the caller would only call if he had a 9. My raise looks like I am the one with the 9 and if someone calls I have the FD to fall back on. When the button cold called I was pretty sure HE had the 9 so I felt very good when the flush hit. I would've folded to a river raise.

4) I know lots of people check raise but I dont like it that much. Once you put in a big check raise and get called you basically have to shove every turn (with normal 80-100BB stacks) and once he calls a big check raise on the flop hes probably not folding the turn. The pot is too big by then.

Yes, I would be happy to shove over a raise and if Im going to get all in Id rather do it on the flop than on the turn.
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12-22-2017 , 09:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by winky51
Hand #1 - and you call me insane for my bluffs. With reads I can see this play. And in general.

Hand #2 - I think he can call with a hand like AK AQ. But since you block those you can bluff bet here like you did. But I wouldn't play KQo vs an UTG tight open OOP without reads.

Hand #3 - Don't like calling with 64s without reads in that spot. That $15 raise screams small PP. With 98s you have great equity and 6 outs even if you miss. With 64s you have 5 if you hit. Rank is important here. But again with reads. Otherwise played well.

Hand #4 - Good preflop call. If you had A4o I would consider 3b bluffing vs a weak open from EP. Good the way you played it. You could also XR here too. Why the weak lead? Where you planning on bet/3b?
2) I normally fold KQ to a raise. Almost always, but I had been card dead and decided I was going to try to take this hand away post flop.

3) Yes he most likely had a non premium hand with his $15 raise. I was the BB so it was only $10 more to me. I think call or fold is fine but if you call you have to be willing to try to win the pot sometimes when you dont hit anything. If the flop is dry and they both check, Ill be leading a lot of turns to steal the pot.
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12-22-2017 , 03:11 PM
Musta of brain farted on the 1st hand. I didn't see the small 1st bet. Now I really like the play.

On 64s - Of course you have to play to steal. Can't play to hit. I never play to just hit with a hand.
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12-22-2017 , 09:02 PM
Today was a very boring day. The table was soft but my cards wouldnt let me do anything about it. Here's one hand though.

1) A guy opens to $20. I believe he was UTG+1. This guy and I are very friendly and we sometimes talk strategy but not in detail. He mixes it up, raises mostly good hands in early position and lots of junk in late position.

Im on his immediate left and call the $20 with Ac9c. I normally would fold this as A9 is one of my most hated hands...but it was SOOOOOTED! Anyway I call and we end up HU.

Flop ($45) AsAd7h. X/X
Turn ($45) Tc. He checks. I start to bet and he says "dont get cute here". I bet $25 anyway. He quickly calls.
River ($95) Ah. He leads $10. LOL. Im pretty sure he has a weak T. T9s/JTs type hand. I raise to $100 and he snap calls me. When I showed my hand he says "Wow, you normally play better than that".

I assume he means that I would normally 3 bet him with a big ace and fold just about all other aces. Hes right about that, but you gotta mix it up sometimes against better players. I just got lucky to hit this hand at this exact time when he either had a T or possibly a bigger pocket pair.
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12-22-2017 , 09:33 PM
“A weak ten”. Lol. Even TT is a weak ten on the river.
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12-23-2017 , 05:16 AM
Make it $4000 on the river I think he still snapcalls
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12-23-2017 , 09:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meale
Make it $4000 on the river I think he still snapcalls
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12-25-2017 , 12:16 AM
Nothing much to report as Ive been card dead the past 3 sessions and havent played any interesting hands. Heres one from a short session today though

UTG limps. HJ and cutoff limp. I make it $30 OTB with Jd9d. Now UTG reraises to $95. and it folds back to me.

UTG has been playing pretty LAG. Hes gotten to showdown a couple times with hand where hes been betting draws and trying to bluff scare cards. Things like that. Basically he trying to outplay everyone. Thats my read in the 90 mins Ive played with this random young guy. He definitely didnt seem like the type to limp a big hand UTG. However, he did seem like the type that would have a good idea that I could be making a lite button raise here. So I 4 bet shoved all in. He took about 15 seconds and folded.
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12-25-2017 , 03:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Nothing much to report as Ive been card dead the past 3 sessions and havent played any interesting hands. Heres one from a short session today though

UTG limps. HJ and cutoff limp. I make it $30 OTB with Jd9d. Now UTG reraises to $95. and it folds back to me.

UTG has been playing pretty LAG. Hes gotten to showdown a couple times with hand where hes been betting draws and trying to bluff scare cards. Things like that. Basically he trying to outplay everyone. Thats my read in the 90 mins Ive played with this random young guy. He definitely didnt seem like the type to limp a big hand UTG. However, he did seem like the type that would have a good idea that I could be making a lite button raise here. So I 4 bet shoved all in. He took about 15 seconds and folded.
How deep? I think Axs are better hands to 4b, blocker to AA and ~30% equity vs pp worse that AA when called.
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12-25-2017 , 06:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pure_aggression
How deep? I think Axs are better hands to 4b, blocker to AA and ~30% equity vs pp worse that AA when called.
+1
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12-25-2017 , 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pure_aggression
How deep? I think Axs are better hands to 4b, blocker to AA and ~30% equity vs pp worse that AA when called.
We were $465 effective.

In a normal spot, I agree that Axs is a better hand to 4bet with, but lets consider this:

1) I wouldnt raise Axs here from the button. That's a great hand to overlimp with so I wouldnt have the chance to 4 bet with it in this particular situation

2) A better 4 bet with Axs would go like this. I open in MP and get a call or two. The SB 3 bets. Now I 4 bet shove my Axs. I could do that because I think the SB is squeezing lite and I have the blocker and the equity you mentioned.

Also, how often do you get in a spot like this? When someone limp/reraises from UTG, its AA/KK the vast majority of the time. This was a rare instance where I was pretty sure he didnt have a monster so I would've 4 bet with whatever hand I happen to have.
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12-25-2017 , 10:18 AM
I just remembered another interesting, yet annoying hand

1) UTG limps. MP limps. I make it $30 with AdQs. They both call.

Flop ($95) As7h2h. UTG checks. MP leads $85.

UTG ($500)
MP ($850)
Hero covers

MP is a crazy Asian who plays lots of big hands. Ive only played with him twice so I dont have a great read, but I know Ive been left shaking my head a few times already when he got to showdown.

I call the $85 and we are HU

Turn ($265) 9c. He bets $240. WTF? I honestly cant remember ever being in a situation like this where someone just leads pot and then pots it again on the turn. I think I made it pretty clear that I have a big ace by raising preflop and then calling a pot bet on the flop. I guess I could have a FD also (in his mind anyway).

I saw into the future and watched myself call this turn bet and then call a river all in and look like a moron when he shows A7 or A2 so I folded but it sucked. He raises preflop a fair amount so I dont think he had AK/AQ/AJ and Ive dont remember anyone ever playing AT like this before but hes a crazy Asian so who knows? Basically my policy is that I dont CALL big bets unless Im pretty certain Im ahead. Id much rather be betting $240 on the turn here than calling it.
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12-25-2017 , 10:57 AM
Yah I fold too. No one's ever spacking out here into an uncapped range with just a rando ace.
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12-25-2017 , 03:05 PM
Gotta give you credit for a good read with the J9s.

I'm folding AQ, him leading pot twice is repping super strong.
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12-25-2017 , 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pure_aggression
Gotta give you credit for a good read with the J9s.

I'm folding AQ, him leading pot twice is repping super strong.
Here's why I posted it and why its bugging me.

Right after the hand he mumbled something about "only AK and AQ beat me" which would make me think he had AJ. Of course hes always talking and making no sense so its hard to tell if he was serious or just trying to throw me off.

In a later hand (I didnt see all the action), a guy led $80 on the river into 3 players on a board something like 5sTcJsAs3h. It folded to my Asian friend who raised to $275 with 24 and then folded to a $800 all in. It seemed pretty obvious to me that this guy wasnt leading into 3 people without a flush. So the Asian guy is a total wild card and may have really had AJ.
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12-25-2017 , 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pure_aggression
Gotta give you credit for a good read with the J9s.

I'm folding AQ, him leading pot twice is repping super strong.
Also, the guy in my J9s hand said he had A4 (probably suited since he didnt seem bad enough to limp A4 off UTG). He had the same idea as you that A4s is a good 3 bet candidate (which I agree with). Ive limp/reraised a small suited Ace from UTG before against a guy who would assume it was AA/KK.
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12-27-2017 , 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
I just remembered another interesting, yet annoying hand

1) UTG limps. MP limps. I make it $30 with AdQs. They both call.

Flop ($95) As7h2h. UTG checks. MP leads $85.

UTG ($500)
MP ($850)
Hero covers

MP is a crazy Asian who plays lots of big hands. Ive only played with him twice so I dont have a great read, but I know Ive been left shaking my head a few times already when he got to showdown.

I call the $85 and we are HU

Turn ($265) 9c. He bets $240. WTF? I honestly cant remember ever being in a situation like this where someone just leads pot and then pots it again on the turn. I think I made it pretty clear that I have a big ace by raising preflop and then calling a pot bet on the flop. I guess I could have a FD also (in his mind anyway).

I saw into the future and watched myself call this turn bet and then call a river all in and look like a moron when he shows A7 or A2 so I folded but it sucked. He raises preflop a fair amount so I dont think he had AK/AQ/AJ and Ive dont remember anyone ever playing AT like this before but hes a crazy Asian so who knows? Basically my policy is that I dont CALL big bets unless Im pretty certain Im ahead. Id much rather be betting $240 on the turn here than calling it.
I think this is a fold against the player as described. I feel like this is almost always 2pair+ given the limp then double psb leads.

Obviously if you notice his donk double lead range in future hands is non nutted then you'll have to call down lighter in the future.
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12-27-2017 , 04:13 PM
Here are 3hands against the same guy all within about 20 minutes from my session yesterday.

1) I open to $20 8d6d in MP. A tight guy calls OTB. Main villain who is fairly loose and is involved in a lot of hands calls in the BB.

Flop ($60) KcJd6h. Check around
Turn ($60) 4s BB checks. I bet $35. Button folds. BB thinks and calls.
River ($135) 5c. BB checks. I bet $100. Im not sure if this is a good bet or not to be honest.

He doesnt have a K. I dont think he has a J either.
He will be sure I dont have a K (which is wrong. I can have a K). He cant be sure if I have a J or not.

A river bet should mean I have a J to most people. He tank/folded. In the past I would just give up but Im trying to be better at bluffing and repping certain hands that he cant beat, like I think I did here.

2) Main villain limps in EP. MP limps. I raise to $30 OTB with QcQs. They both call.

Flop ($95) 9h7c6s. They check to me. When it comes to bet sizing most people would bet more on a flop like this than they would on a flop like J62. Nothing wrong with that and Im sure lots of people will hate this but I checked the flop back for pot control.

Turn ($95) 2s. Main villain in EP bet $55. MP folds and I call.
River ($205) Jc. EP bet $110. I call and beat his AsJs.

3) Main villain opens to $15 in EP. He hadnt raised much up to this point so I had no idea what his range was to open in EP so I called in MP with JdJh. 2 guys in LP called as well

Flop ($65) 7d4d3c. Villain bet $25. I called and we went HU
Turn ($115) 3d. He checked. I bet $55. He called.
River ($225) Ac. He checked. Not sure if this is a value bet or not. I think he can easily have the Ad so I checked back and beat his 88. Not sure if he had a diamond or not.
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12-27-2017 , 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Here are 3hands against the same guy all within about 20 minutes from my session yesterday.

1) I open to $20 8d6d in MP. A tight guy calls OTB. Main villain who is fairly loose and is involved in a lot of hands calls in the BB.

Flop ($60) KcJd6h. Check around
Turn ($60) 4s BB checks. I bet $35. Button folds. BB thinks and calls.
River ($135) 5c. BB checks. I bet $100. Im not sure if this is a good bet or not to be honest.

He doesnt have a K. I dont think he has a J either.
He will be sure I dont have a K (which is wrong. I can have a K). He cant be sure if I have a J or not.

A river bet should mean I have a J to most people. He tank/folded. In the past I would just give up but Im trying to be better at bluffing and repping certain hands that he cant beat, like I think I did here.

2) Main villain limps in EP. MP limps. I raise to $30 OTB with QcQs. They both call.

Flop ($95) 9h7c6s. They check to me. When it comes to bet sizing most people would bet more on a flop like this than they would on a flop like J62. Nothing wrong with that and Im sure lots of people will hate this but I checked the flop back for pot control.

Turn ($95) 2s. Main villain in EP bet $55. MP folds and I call.
River ($205) Jc. EP bet $110. I call and beat his AsJs.

3) Main villain opens to $15 in EP. He hadnt raised much up to this point so I had no idea what his range was to open in EP so I called in MP with JdJh. 2 guys in LP called as well

Flop ($65) 7d4d3c. Villain bet $25. I called and we went HU
Turn ($115) 3d. He checked. I bet $55. He called.
River ($225) Ac. He checked. Not sure if this is a value bet or not. I think he can easily have the Ad so I checked back and beat his 88. Not sure if he had a diamond or not.
1. I like the river bluff. You're obviously not trying to get him to fold a K, just all his J and underpairs.

2. Bet that flop. Also, I really hate the term "pot control". You are checking for deception, and there is nothing wrong with that. That being said, I think I'd rather pick a board that isn't so straightening to do it on, as I think there is value to be had by betting here. Also, I would rather choose a hand that is less vulnerable to overcards like AA or KK to check here, and bet my QQ-TT.

3. 3! pre given no reads. Against a nit from ep I'll just flat JJ, but readless I'm always 3!, specifically to shut out the rest of the table. As played I like your post flop line. I think betting that river against an unknown is just too thin.
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12-27-2017 , 05:20 PM
2) Betting or checking this flop is something that I think could be discussed and debated for hours. There are good reasons for both.

3) Yeah, 3 betting preflop to shut out the guys behind me is probably best.
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