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Poker Goals & Challenges Post your threads logging your travels up the poker ladder as you achieve your poker goals and dreams. "Challenges" does NOT mean prop bets, wagers, etc.

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Old 06-16-2017, 06:36 PM   #101
Shai Hulud
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

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Originally Posted by winky51 View Post
54s calling the min-raise is a little +EV. You need ~20:1 to be roughly break even. You flop huge a little more than 6% of the time... now discount coolers and suckouts. Not even counting draws. And this is all assuming the limp-reraiser has AA exactly and isn't folding no matter what comes. He was getting ~23:1

And if you play poker long enough, like I have, you see all sorts of WTF **** that is mathematically impossible. I have a long list of "how the hell is that possible".
He's getting 315: (27-12) or 21:1. Accounting for rake and tips it's more like 305:15 or 20.33:1.

54 flops 2p+ like 5.6%. If we add the 12-out+ combo draws we get a couple more %. So assuming we're hardly ever coolered and virtually always get paid off calling is fine, but I don't think we can assume that. We'll in fact get coolered pretty often with 54, and if we assume villain is super strong (our ideal scenario), say {KK+, AK} we are not getting paid when AK misses, when he has KK and an A hits, and many players will even fold AA on nasty boards.

The metric I've usually seen on whether to continue with suited connectors is if you think on average you can win 20 times the call amount when you hit, then call. Since 20 times the call amount is $500, we're obviously never winning that. Even if you don't like this call criterion, no way 150BB is deep enough to call a 3-bet with 54 IMO, unless you anticipate the raiser folding to pressure a lot (but in fact we're assuming the opposite).
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:58 PM   #102
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

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I read his PGC and took interest because he was playing in the same games I was. He was mostly playing at the Hard Rock and I play mostly at The Isle but there's still a lot of overlap in the player pools. He posted his graph and his win rate but after reading some of his HHs, I knew there was no way he was playing well. He was just running hot. I told him that and when he started losing, he took me up on an offer to play at the table with him to help identify any leaks. He had blown most of his roll with some Vegas debauchery so we played 1/2. Honestly I didnt see any glaring leaks but he also wasnt playing anything close to the way he was posting about playing.

We played 2/5 a couple times together but he was playing with an almost non existent roll and wasnt winning much if anything.

I havent seen or talked to him in a while but I know he finally got a real job. I'm assuming hes not playing anymore since I haven't seen him.
I'm still out in the streets battling, not as often as I was. I have seen you playing MikeStarr just haven't come by to say hello. I've been playing a few tournies here and there at Isle. I chopped one last month.

I haven't been able to get a roll together, at least enough to play poker with. I'm working, building the $$ so I can get back to the tables more consistently. Miss it... awesome you started a thread. I'll come say Hi next time I am there. All the best MikeStarr
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:53 PM   #103
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

The Fly LIVES!!
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Old 06-16-2017, 10:05 PM   #104
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

Had a crazy 1/2 table this morning. One guy was calling just about any and all raises.

I raised 2 limpers with QQ to $20 and got 3 callers. Flop Kxx. Had to give up
I 3 bet a guy to $30 TT and got 3 callers. Flop KJX and had to give up.

The big calling station won both of those hands. Im waiting for my spot. Not too long later....

EP ($90) opens to $6.
MP ($100) calls.
Next guy ($75) calls.
Im in the HJ with $275 and 3 bet KK to $30
The nut bag calling station ($260) cold calls my $30 in the SB
EP calls
MP calls Next guy folds

Flop ($130) Jc7c7d. Nutbag in SB leads $100. EP calls all in. Folds to me. I shove. Nutbag calls

Nutbag has AJ
EP has AK

Turn 8
River A.....FML

Nutbag leaves 10 mins later. FML.

I ran into more nonsense and was stuck $500. Ate dinner and came back and played 3 hours. In that 3 hours I got 1 pocket pair (99). I didnt get a single Ace with a kicker higher than 9. I didnt get KQ. I didnt get jack****.

The best hand I had was KJs which I raised. I raised some other junk and bobbed and weaved for 3 hours and won $100 back. Pretty much a brutal day.
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:53 AM   #105
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

Ahh the insanity that is 1/2. Gotta love it.
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:19 PM   #106
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

If you looked up the phrase "card dead" in the dictionary.....wait a minute. Nobody uses a dictionary anymore. If you googled the phrase "card dead", you would see a pic of good ole MikeStarr.

Ive perfected the fold. I can fold quickly, slowly, sideways out of my hand, the card slam. I can flick the cards forward on the felt with precision. Its amazing how many ways there is to fold when you think about it.
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:34 PM   #107
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

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If you looked up the phrase "card dead" in the dictionary.....wait a minute. Nobody uses a dictionary anymore. If you googled the phrase "card dead", you would see a pic of good ole MikeStarr.

Ive perfected the fold. I can fold quickly, slowly, sideways out of my hand, the card slam. I can flick the cards forward on the felt with precision. Its amazing how many ways there is to fold when you think about it.
How's your helicopter fold?
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Old 06-18-2017, 08:40 AM   #108
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

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How's your helicopter fold?
Forgot about that one. Ive used that one so many times I can fly those cards like a drone where ever I want them to land.
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Old 06-18-2017, 08:49 AM   #109
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

Here's the main problem with being card dead and folding so often.

EP raises $15 after a limper or 2. 2 calls I call with 77 in the SB. We go 6 to the flop.
Flop ($90) Kc7hQh. Im like WTF? Is that set? I cant remember what it feels like to have a set. WTF do I do? If I dont just open fold they will suspect something.

I lead $35 trying to entice a raise. I get 2 calls including preflop raiser.
Turn ($205) 4s. I lead $100. Preflop raiser calls
River ($405) 3h. Really? The flush card? Does this maggot have a flush? I check. He thinks and bets $200. I havent won a big 2/5 hand so long I cant remember what it was. I call and of course he has AhKh.

So that's the problem with being card dead. Not the boredom of folding. Not the fact that you have nothing else to do for hours but stare at a bunch of disgruntled poker players and think about what annoys you about almost all of them. You just cant let go of a hand when you finally hit one.

At the end of the day I ended +$50. How that happened is beyond me, but what I know is that it couldve easily been a +$250 day if I had just folded one more time.
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:34 PM   #110
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

Surprised you called here. I can put him on a flush, KK, and QQ. The latter two only because it's the Isles.
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:59 PM   #111
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

Yeah, you went 6 to the flop and now the flush hit. Seems pretty obvious but easy to make that call when you aren't playing your A game.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:48 PM   #112
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

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Yeah, you went 6 to the flop and now the flush hit. Seems pretty obvious but easy to make that call when you aren't playing your A game.
Exactly. That's what happens when you go card dead for days on end.
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Old 06-18-2017, 08:46 PM   #113
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Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

Bet MUCH BIGGER on turn and fold river obv


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Old 06-18-2017, 09:53 PM   #114
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

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Bet MUCH BIGGER on turn and fold river obv


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Assuming we will fold the river if a non board pairing flush card hits the river, isnt $100-$125 enough on the turn? If we bet $175+ it seems like we are really trying to get him to fold a FD which is not what we want right? He only has 7 outs which is about a 15% chance to beat me on the river and I gave him 3:1 odds. I can get on board with $130ish but I dont think much more than that.

I cant imagine any decent player calling $175 in my games unless they have KK/QQ/KQ and I think most all good players wouldve raised the flop with those hands.

I didnt want him to fold a made hand
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:00 PM   #115
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

Favorite 1/2 hand from today. 2 EP limpers. I raise to $15 with Jd9d in MP. 1 EP limper calls

Flop ($35) AdQdJh. He check/calls $20
Turn ($75) 5c X/X
River ($75) 6d. He bets $50. I shove. He calls off another $125 with AA.
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:08 PM   #116
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

I'm not completely convinced the call is that bad, though I could be wrong. Very villain dependent but if he raised pre-flop in EP there's not that many hearts he's likely to have (broadways + AT+ is only 6 heart combos on this board). I'd decide based on how often I think he raises vs. limps AXs and SCs pre-flop, how often he flat-calls the flop with KQ or AA and how often he bluffs missed draws like AJ and JT. He could also just have AKo here and be betting the river for value after you check. Your small flop and turn bets don't look super strong so he could think AKo is good. I think you're usually losing but you just need to be good 1 time in 3. If he raises AXs and SCs, rarely flats AA, and KQ and never bluffs his missed draws or value bets AKo then I'm definitely folding. If he's more likely to limp AXs and SCs, and I think he might flat AA and KQ and/or bluff the river or value bet AKo then I'm calling.

I'd definitely bet more on the flop and turn though.
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:36 PM   #117
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

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Here's the main problem with being card dead and folding so often.

EP raises $15 after a limper or 2. 2 calls I call with 77 in the SB. We go 6 to the flop.
Flop ($90) Kc7hQh. Im like WTF? Is that set? I cant remember what it feels like to have a set. WTF do I do? If I dont just open fold they will suspect something.

I lead $35 trying to entice a raise. I get 2 calls including preflop raiser.
Turn ($205) 4s. I lead $100. Preflop raiser calls
River ($405) 3h. Really? The flush card? Does this maggot have a flush? I check. He thinks and bets $200. I havent won a big 2/5 hand so long I cant remember what it was. I call and of course he has AhKh.

So that's the problem with being card dead. Not the boredom of folding. Not the fact that you have nothing else to do for hours but stare at a bunch of disgruntled poker players and think about what annoys you about almost all of them. You just cant let go of a hand when you finally hit one.

At the end of the day I ended +$50. How that happened is beyond me, but what I know is that it couldve easily been a +$250 day if I had just folded one more time.
It may or may not change anyone's opinion, but this is a 2/5 hand. Not 1/2
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:45 PM   #118
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

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Assuming we will fold the river if a non board pairing flush card hits the river, isnt $100-$125 enough on the turn? If we bet $175+ it seems like we are really trying to get him to fold a FD which is not what we want right? He only has 7 outs which is about a 15% chance to beat me on the river and I gave him 3:1 odds. I can get on board with $130ish but I dont think much more than that.



I cant imagine any decent player calling $175 in my games unless they have KK/QQ/KQ and I think most all good players wouldve raised the flop with those hands.



I didnt want him to fold a made hand


His range is pretty strong on this flop. FL draws, Kx, maybe JT, maybe AT, AJ. He isn't floating you here. Thus isf his range is TP-ish and strong draws I want to get more money in while he has those draws as a large part of his range

You didn't give stack sizes so hard to say exactly but I think something closer to$150 is probably better. Of course we don't want a fold but if he is calling ~100 I think he is calling 135-150


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Old 06-19-2017, 03:12 AM   #119
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

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It may or may not change anyone's opinion, but this is a 2/5 hand. Not 1/2
Ah. Also noticed you said he's a decent player? I don't know if this means he's bluffing more or less. It does seem unlikely the player wouldn't raise AA or KQ OTF, but there are so few heart combos out there unless he has no limping range. Combined with KK and QQ though there might be enough combos we should fold if he's incapable of bluffing something like AJ or JT when the spade hits, but IDK.

Personally I would bluff a lot on this river with a missed straight draw. The line looks super strong, as evidenced by everyone telling you to fold a set to a 1/2 pot bet, and most of the time you don't even have a set and are turbo-folding.

I don't know. Just doesn't seem that clear to me. Why should we fold a set here? Is a decent player never bluffing on the third spade (the 3 also completes a straight)? Or thin value-betting AK (not hearts), KQ, AA? We lose to 65, KK, QQ, and hearts. 65 is not likely even if he raises 65s in EP as that's 4 combos max, plus calling the flop and turn bets with that hand is horrific. So it's basically hearts, KK, and QQ. But we can discount KK and QQ somewhat as he's raising these hands on the flop at least sometimes. If he raises these half the time, then this makes 9 combos we're losing to if he's raising suited broadways and not AXs and SCs. AK, KQ, and AA make 26 combos we beat. Even heavily discounting AK, KQ, and AA (say 1 in 4 chance he plays these hands this way), we still have odds to call, even if villain is never bluffing. And if he's decent he has to be bluffing sometimes.

There are a lot of assumptions here, like how a decent player is likely to play certain hands. The biggest factors in calling seem to be a) could he play AJ, JT, AK, KQ, or AA this way at least some of the time? and b) how many AXs and SCs does he raise over limps pre-flop? If the answer to a) is "no" AND the answer to b) is "a lot" then it may be a fold.

But I don't think it's obvious at all. Maybe someone can explain it better to me why it's a clear fold.
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Old 06-20-2017, 08:56 AM   #120
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

Results since starting to play 1/2 a lot in June

60.3 hrs
$2397
$39.75/hr

Total 1/2 and 1/3 results recorded in this app.

237 hrs
$9985
$42.10/hr
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Old 06-20-2017, 05:35 PM   #121
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

Played 2 hrs of 1/2 today and didnt win a single hand. Lost $125. The room has a lot of cigarette smoke that carries in from the casino which I hate so between that and getting garbage, I left and went to my normal room which is only 15 mins away. I played 2 hours of 2/5 and it too me an hour to win my first hand. Ended up winning 3 hands on the day. Won $50 at 2/5.

The last month Ive been running really bad and the last 7-8 days have been a card dead death spiral.
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Old 06-20-2017, 06:17 PM   #122
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

Why are you playing 1/2?

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Old 06-20-2017, 07:13 PM   #123
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

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Why are you playing 1/2?

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I played a ton of 1/2 on a prop bet in December and broke $40/hr with much less risk than 2/5 because its rare that I got put in any tough spots.

About 10 days ago, I had a couple rough days at 2/5. When I got to the poker room there was only one 2/5 and it was full so I sat at 1/2 waiting for a seat. About 2 hours later I was sitting on a $900 stack so I stayed there. I left that day with a monster stack of around $1650ish IIRC. So I played some more 1/2 the next couple days and crushed it again. The buy in is 150BBs as opposed to 100BBs at 2/5. The players are completely terrible and they give plenty of action which has resulted in a win rate in dollars just about the same as 2/5 with much less stress and swings. Ive won 84% of sessions at 1/2.

So while it seems stupid to be playing 1/2, it also seems stupid not to if I can win the same amount of money. The risk/reward is much much better at 1/2.

I was actually planning to play a lot of 5/10 during the June/July while a lot of the good players are in Vegas but so many are gone that the 5/10 has all but dried up.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:18 PM   #124
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

Its amazing how you can feel like you will never win another hand...when you never win a hand, and then suddenly you are bullet proof when the cards start falling your way.

Played 2/5 today

1) Couple limpers. I limp 5h4h.
Flop ($25) Ac2c3s. Checked to me. I bet $20 and get 1 call.
Turn ($65) Th. I bet $50 and he calls
River ($165) 8d. I bet $100 ad he calls and mucks.

2) I overlimp Ad6d. 5 to the flop
Flop ($25) Td6h4d. Checked to me. I bet $20. SB calling station calls. One MP called as well.
Turn ($85) 2d. SB check/calls $50
River ($185). Some blank card. He check/calls $125 all in.

3) EP limps. I limp Ac6c in MP. Cutoff and button limp.
Flop ($25) 2c3c4c. Checked to me. I check. Cutoff bets $15. Button calls. Folds to me. I cr to $50. Cutoff and button both call
Turn ($175) 6d. I think a while and shove all in. Cutoff calls $130 all in. Button calls $225 all in.

Cutoff has Kc9c
Button has 42...LOL

River 5c. I have straight flush. Not that I needed it.

4) Fish limps in MP. I complete Td6d in SB which I rarely do but thought why the hell not?
Flop ($15) Ad 3d 6d. I bet $15. BB folds. MP calls
Turn ($45) 8s. I bet $25. He calls.
River ($95) Jc. I bet $65. He calls with 5d4d. Im the king of coolers today. Feels nice to be in the other side for a change.

5) Couple limps. I overlimp QJ in LP.
Flop ($25) J84. Whale that had 42 in hand #3 leads $20 from SB. Im the only caller
Turn ($65) 3. He bets $20 again. I raise to $55. He calls
River ($175) 8. He leads $225. I fold and he shows an 8.

6) Same whale opens to $15 in EP. I 3 bet AK to $100. in MP. He calls with $100 behind. I go all in blind and out of turn. LOL
Flop ($205) KQ4. He folds.

7) Young gun 5/10 player opens to $20 in HJ. Cutoff, button and SB call. Im in BB with AA. Im thinking of how much to 3 bet when the whale who is the button in this hand says "Dont be so tight MikeStarr!" .....but since my real name isnt Mike Starr, insert my real name. I 3 bet to $90 and the first 3 guys fold. The SB tank/folds AQs and says he would've shoved if the whale hadnt mentioned me being tight....which I'm not at all which shows how terrible he is.

I did lose QQ 3 out of 3 times with bad flops.

Overall it was one of those days where poker is super easy. Won $1100 in 4 hrs.
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Old 06-21-2017, 07:52 PM   #125
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Re: Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

Why going ai blind in hand 6?
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