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Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success Taking unorthodox lines to live poker success

11-02-2017 , 12:22 PM
The difference in adding each additional player is the stronger the overall range of the table bc of card distribution. This is one of several reasons why the shorter handed a game is, the wider range you should be playing. (Paying more frequent blinds being the other main reason)

I used to think the difference between 9 and 10 handed was not large (compared to something like 6 and 9 which is obviously very large), but there is a very noticeable difference in my 9 and 10 handed recorded volume, 9 being more profitable.
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11-02-2017 , 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meale
Nothing worse than a 10 hour 10 handed session. - comfort EV for sure
Depends on the size of the table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Position of bad players should dictate where you sit most of the time
Position of nits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
Being a nit a prefer 10 handed. The blinds don't come along as often as shorter handed, plus the more players at the table the more chance of there being idiots at the table (the only thing that makes poker super profitable), plus the more chance of taking down a huge pot preflop at loose aggro tables, imo. Suits my style.

Gifwecouldplay12handed,signmeupG
You would love 22 handed Tennessee Hold-Me. I prefer 5 handed, or 10 handed with 5+ nits I suppose.
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11-02-2017 , 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream Crusher
Position of nits.
Shhhh.
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11-02-2017 , 04:34 PM
I mean, let's say we're sitting at a 9 handed table and a poor player wanders by. We don't ask him to sit in the game cuz god forbid we'd be playing 10 handed?

GjustmeIguessG
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11-02-2017 , 06:50 PM
I have 14 All in hands now since I started keeping track and Ive seen villians cards 13 times so far. The only time I didnt see them I was almost completely certain he had AA or AK. There was no other hand he could have so he had either 4% or 2% equity. This shows how accurate my overall All in EV calculations are. I estimated I see villains cards 80-85% of the time but so far it even higher.

Here's today's only all in...

1) 2 limps and a guy posts out of turn. I raise to $30 QQ in MP. 1 EP limper calls.

Flop ($70) Q82 rainbow. He checks. I check back.
Turn ($70) 9. He checks. I bet $40. He crai to about $220. I call.
River ($510) 7. He says "I missed". I just sat there. Obviously I know I have the winner but Im not showing unless he does. I used to just show my cards when I knew I had the winner but Ive had people angle me like this a few times....and also, I dont want them knowing if I called lite or had an easy call unless I'm forced to show.

He finally showed KT.

2) Same villain has now moved to my direct right and posts a blind in MP. It folds to him. I raise to $25 QhTd. He calls HU.

Flop ($55) AcKc4d. He checks. I think I can Cbet or check back here but I decided to bet $30. He called.
Turn ($115) Ts. Check/check
River ($115) Qc. He bets $60. Who calls this bet? I normally dont try to bluff catch very often because I find people arent bluffing very often, but this is a good spot for him to bluff. He really shouldnt have a J and could easily have just an Ace. Of course he could also be bluffing with a higher 2 pair. Thoughts?
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11-03-2017 , 03:11 AM
IMO weird spot for him to bluff considering he should have flushes, Jx, two pair etc. Don't think we can call and don't like the cbet without a club either.
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11-03-2017 , 08:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meale
IMO weird spot for him to bluff considering he should have flushes, Jx, two pair etc. Don't think we can call and don't like the cbet without a club either.
Sorry, the river was an offsuit Q. There's no flush.

As for the Cbet, I never know if I should Cbet a flop like this or not. Some people Cbet 100% when HU. That might be OK if you are tight preflop so you arent raising much but I raise preflop a lot so my Cbets get less credit. I definitely CBet less than average.

I guess I could have a rule that I dont Cbet a flop like this without a club, but a guy who limp/calls preflop is very often not going to have anything he can call with on this flop. He should be folding any pocket pair and any non Ax or any hand that doesnt have 2 clubs, right?

Wouldnt you say I can Cbet when IP but maybe check OOP?
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11-03-2017 , 08:53 AM
Yeah this exact spot is something I'm working really hard on now as well. It's tough because if villain happens to limp call all Ax offsuit, it's a terrible board for us to cbet. I feel like my cbet success here is terrible lately.

Definitely OOP we can't cbet without a club imo. In position, we can cbet to get a free river which is nice but OOP our visibility is so poor.

I think we really need to focus in on their preflop limp call range to decide whether our particular villain is going to be folding much on this board.

If you can, think about this spot every time it comes up and report back tbh. Because in with you, largely guessing whether we should cbet and then wondering why we get called so much!
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11-04-2017 , 10:02 AM
The last 3 days Ive been terribly card dead (or flop dead).

In 12 hours, I was dealt only 8 pocket pairs.
I went on a streak of 11 in a row of having AK/AQ and missing the flop.

Ive still managed to hit $34/hr so far this month after 5 hours of 1/2 and 7 hours of 2/5.

Yesterday I had a huge whale at my table. In the 2 1/2 hours I was there he dropped $3k. Here are a couple hands.

1) Whale opens $25 with total stack of $135. I 3 bet to $150 with AK. He calls all in HU. I flop a K and beat him. He didnt show but couldve had ATC. He got all in for $75-$125 twice already with 72s.

2) Whale limps. Next guy raises to $35. Hes very aggro. He raises a lot and also is trying to iso the whale so he has a wide range here. I 3 bet to $105 AK and take it down preflop.

3) I open to $20 in MP Ks9s. Whale calls HU in the BB.
Flop ($40) KhKhTd. Whale check/calls $30

Turn ($100) 9c. Whale check/calls $50. I think this is a pretty good bet against most people who can have a FD, a gutshot or a T....but its too small against this whale. Hes been calling larger bets and losing tons with TP weak kicker type hands and draws.

River ($200) 4s. He check/folds to $80

3) UTG opens $20. Whale 3 bets to $65 in MP. I have QQ SB. We are $500ish effective. UTG is a solid player so I dont think I can 4 bet here. Or maybe I should be 4 bet/folding to UTG? And 4 bet/getting it in vs the whale?

UTG and I have a good amount of hours together. If I 4 bet him, hes rarely shoving anything but AA/KK. However, if I make it $175 and UTG shoves and the whale calls, I pretty much have to call just due to pot odds.

Anyway, I called the $65. UTG folded.

Flop ($155) Axx. The hand was anticlimactic and checked down. Whale had JJ. If I knew UTG was going to fold I couldve gotten all in preflop with the whale. Blah

4) Very next hand. The whale opens $20. I call TT OTB HU.

Flop ($45) 9s7h5d. He bet $20. I call
Turn ($85) 9h. He bet $100. Hmmm. I hadnt really seen the whale bluff at all. He was getting crushed but mostly it was calling down with TP or calling big bets with draws and missing. I reluctantly folded. He told me what he had. Id love to hear comments here. (I know I maybe shouldve 3 bet him pre)

5) EP limps. I raise to $25 JcTc. Whale calls in the BB. Limper folds.

Flop ($55) Js 7c 4c. He check/calls $30
Turn ($115) Qs. Check.check
River ($115) Ad. He leads $80...ugh. I fold.
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11-04-2017 , 10:51 AM
I fold the TT as well.
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11-05-2017 , 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meale
I fold the TT as well.
He told me he had 6h5h. That was actually a very good bet on his part. I thought I was ahead when I folded but he hadnt been bluffing at all so I gave it up.
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11-05-2017 , 09:29 AM
I sat at a 2/5 table yesterday with 5 guys I had never seen before. In a room chock full of regs, this is a very good sign. S. Florida is very seasonal and we are finally in season again. The games get so much better this time of year. Its hard to put into words how bad the games are during the summer.

The game was very soft but there wasnt much action at all. I counted hands and in 1 hr 45 mins I played 75 hands for an avg of about 43/hr. As Ive said before that's close to what I get most of the time.

Then a new table opened up and my favorite drunk whale sat down so I moved to the new table. The new table also had 5 unknown players. This table had so much action that I swear I had found a time machine and I was transported back to 2004. Ill post the very first hand at this table in a second but I have a good point to make first. I counted hands at this table and over 3 hours I got 28/hr.

Someone mentioned the other day that if I get 40 hands/hr and other people get 30, my win rate will be higher because obviously Im getting more hands per hour and live players state win rate in $$/hr. Accordning to that metric, I have an unfair advantage when comparing win rates.

Someone else mentioned that my games must be really bad if Im getting so many hands/hr because good games with more action take longer. I hadnt really thought about that until I played this crazy table. I have stated previously that I play in the toughest 2/5 games in the country. Im sure some people laughed at that, but Im now seeing the correlation between me getting so many hands/hr and my games being so tough. I dont mean tough as in the players are amazingly good. I mean tough as in nobody pays off. The pots are all small. There's little action. There's a chop or 2 every orbit. Games full of nits. Ect. So I'm pretty sure I actually have an unfair disadvantage when comparing win rates. People think S. Florida poker is super soft, and some places it is, but the 2/5 games in my room are ridiculously tough to beat for a high win rate. Ive also said before a lot of the 1/2 games in my room are more profitable than a lot of the 2/5 games which is why Ive been playing a lot of 1/2 lately.

So back to the action table

1) Very first hand dealt at this table

I open to $20 AJ. MP calls HU. Ive never laid eyes on this guy before but he looks like a donk and hes talking about sports betting with his friend sitting beside him. Welcome to my only read on the guy.

Flop ($45) J94. I bet $30. He raises to $80. In my normal reg filled games, this is a fold every time. They aren't raising without J9 minimum. Here though with my sports betting donk read, I call.

Turn ($205) 8. I check. He bets $50. A donk read followed by a smaller turn bet than his flop raise tells me I am ahead. The board is getting scary so Im fine with taking it down now. I crai to $375 total. He goes into the tank and Im pretty sure he has KJ. He finally calls.

River ($955) 7....He tables KJ and I double up. Welcome back to 2004. I cant remember the last time I double up like this.

There were hands like this for hours. Hands were raised and 3 bet with people cold calling the 3 bets with hands like A9. Unfortunately I was card dead and flop dead most of the time. It was actually one of my more frustrating sessions.

2) UTG opens to $20. I call UTG+1 JsJc. 2 more calls.

Flop ($80) Ts7s3d. UTG bets $35. I hate this spot. I could easily be behind although I would think he would bet more on this flop if he had QQ+. I dont really want to call and give odds super good odds to a FD. I raise to $100. Same donk from HH1 calls in MP. We are HU

Turn ($280) Qc. X/X

River ($280) Ad. I check. He shoves $300. I fold. Blah

3) Button straddle. I complete AsQh in the BB. Tricky guy limps UTG. Button doesnt raise.

Flop ($30) Qs 3s 5c. I bet $20. They both call

Turn ($90) Ah. I check. UTG checks. Button donk bets $70. I call HU

River ($250) 2s. I lead $70. He calls and mucks.

4) Same guy from HH3 opens to $20 in EP. I call TT. MP calls.

Flop ($65) 9s 7d 4c. EP bets $30. I raise to $40. EP calls HU
Turn ($145) 5d. He checks. I bet $75. He calls.
River ($295) Qc. He checks. I check back. He shows J4. LOL

I raised AK/AQ several times and missed in multiway pots. Im now on a streak of 17 out of 18 (raised pots) missing the flop with AK/AQ.
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11-06-2017 , 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
People think S. Florida poker is super soft, and some places it is, but the 2/5 games in my room are ridiculously tough to beat for a high win rate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
In my normal reg filled games, this is a fold every time. They aren't raising without J9 minimum.
Does not compute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Flop ($65) 9s 7d 4c. EP bets $30. I raise to $40. EP calls HU.
Sick raise.
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11-07-2017 , 12:10 AM
Should be a raise to $100...not $40.

What doesn't compute? The fact that the nit regs I play with 80% of the time wont raise without 2 pair?
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11-07-2017 , 12:16 AM
It does not compute that it's hard to beat a game for a high winrate when your opponents are playing their hands so face up.
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11-07-2017 , 12:32 AM
My streak of AK/AQ hands missing the flop is now at 22/24. Brutal. Maybe I hit more than my share before this. Who knows? I just know its getting old.

Ive played 5 days this month so far and won every day, but every day has been frustrating for a number of reasons. From doubling up on my first hand and breaking even over the next 4 hours....to ... missing with AK/AQ over and over...to... being at a table with money flying everywhere for a change but being card dead. I guess winning is winning though so whatever.

Here are a few hands from today....I had AA 4 times today but didnt get a single caller.

1) UTG solid guy opens $20. 4 calls so I call with As3s OTB.

Flop ($120) 8s 5c 3d. Checked around.
Turn ($120) Qs. Checked to me. Nobody has anything? I take a $50 stab at it with my bottom pair and FD. MP calls with only $90 behind.
River ($220) Js. He checks. I shove. He calls and mucks.

2) I open to $20 KT in MP. The BB calls. Hes pretty TAGish.

Flop ($40) K73. X/X
Turn ($40) 5. He check/calls $35
River ($110) 9. He check/calls $75 and mucks. I guess he didnt believe a LAG could check TP on the flop.

3) UTG limps. I raise to $25 7h5h in the LJ. The button and UTG call

Flop ($80) AdJd5c. UTG checks. I check. Button bets $25. UTG folds. I call.

Turn ($130) 5s. I check. He checks back.

River ($130) Qd. I bet $50. He calls with AQ. Very strange that he only bet $25 on the flop and didnt bet the turn. He's a rec player Ive never seen before.

Raised AK/AQ a few times and missed. Cbet some and checked some. Lost them all. I 3 bet AQ once and lost that one too.

4) I limp Ah9h in EP. Ive been keeping track lately of limping Axs in EP. So far its pretty much breakeven. We go 5 to the flop.

Flop ($25) A75 with FD (not mine). BB leads $15. I call. 2 more calls.
Turn ($85) 5. BB bets $20. I raise to $60. BB is the only caller.
River ($205) Q. BB checks. I bet $85 trying to rep a 5 and get him to fold a chop if he has an ace, but he calls with 65. Blah. Probably a stupid play. I dont think I bet enough for him to fold an Ace but I definitely didnt put him on a 5.

5) Limped pot 4 ways. I have Qh9h BB.

Flop ($20) 8h5h2s. I bet $15. SB calls HU
Turn ($50) Js. SB checks. I bet $35. He calls.
River ($120) Qc. He checks. I bet $65. He calls and mucks.
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11-07-2017 , 12:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream Crusher
It does not compute that it's hard to beat a game for a high winrate when your opponents are playing their hands so face up.
They are playing face up for sure, but every pot is small. There are 1-2 chops every orbit. Nobody will pay off unless its a cooler. The game is still very beatable and with low variance but you basically have to LAG it up and run them over and just fold to any resistance. Winning isnt a problem but I dont believe the game is beatable for more than about $35 /hr.

This is the weekday daytime 2/5 game Im talking about. Its filled with the same nitty retiree regs every day. Evenings and weekends are a different story.
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11-07-2017 , 04:01 AM
Quote:
4) Very next hand. The whale opens $20. I call TT OTB HU.
you have a whale that opens close to 100% and doesnt fold to 3bets, position and one of the best possible preflop holdings. What do you do?
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11-07-2017 , 08:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutejszy
you have a whale that opens close to 100% and doesnt fold to 3bets, position and one of the best possible preflop holdings. What do you do?
I would 3 bet him, but I didnt say that this guy was opening close to 100%
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11-07-2017 , 09:52 AM
if he is raising 72s (which apparently he did twice), Im gonna say he is opening pretty close to 100%. Esp since 72 is known to be the worst hand in poker by pretty much everyone, so many recs have spots where they play every single hand except for 72 - same type of magical thinking that makes them bluff evey time they miss with AK, because its a good hand, so they "deserve" to win the hand (in case of 27, they feel like it doesnt "deserve" to win any hands).

Im just writing this because I see live players giving up huge edges in the name of decreasing variance, which really doesnt make sense if you are properly rolled (if you are not, don't play). Vs a guy like this I would likely be trying to get up to 100bb pre with 55+, A9+, KJ+, and collecting dead money from live nits would make it even more profitable.

e: one more thing, giving action to players like this also has it's value, if he thinks you're there to gamble, just like him, he will give you even more action
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11-07-2017 , 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutejszy
if he is raising 72s (which apparently he did twice), Im gonna say he is opening pretty close to 100%. Esp since 72 is known to be the worst hand in poker by pretty much everyone, so many recs have spots where they play every single hand except for 72 - same type of magical thinking that makes them bluff evey time they miss with AK, because its a good hand, so they "deserve" to win the hand (in case of 27, they feel like it doesnt "deserve" to win any hands).

Im just writing this because I see live players giving up huge edges in the name of decreasing variance, which really doesnt make sense if you are properly rolled (if you are not, don't play). Vs a guy like this I would likely be trying to get up to 100bb pre with 55+, A9+, KJ+, and collecting dead money from live nits would make it even more profitable.

e: one more thing, giving action to players like this also has it's value, if he thinks you're there to gamble, just like him, he will give you even more action
I agree with most of this. However the 2 times he played 72s were just dumb spots where he was short stacked. Both times he had just lost a medium-big hand and had $50 left and $75 left.

I think one time there were a couple limpers and he shoved his $50 in and lost. One time there was a raise and he shoved his $75 in and won. He rebought $500 6 times while I was there but he wasnt raising like a maniac when he had an actual stack. I did think I was ahead with my TT though and a 3 bet is not a bad idea at all.
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11-07-2017 , 10:19 AM
>Vs a guy like this I would likely be trying to get up to 100bb pre with 55+, A9+, KJ+

That probably is a bad adjustment to make tbh
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11-07-2017 , 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Should be a raise to $100...not $40.

What doesn't compute? The fact that the nit regs I play with 80% of the time wont raise without 2 pair?
Thinking back I min raised him to $60 so my pot sizes are wrong in that hand.
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11-07-2017 , 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meale
>Vs a guy like this I would likely be trying to get up to 100bb pre with 55+, A9+, KJ+

That probably is a bad adjustment to make tbh
because its high variance or because it's actually bad?
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11-07-2017 , 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayth
because its high variance or because it's actually bad?
Because it's less profitable than playing poker postflop. I can't imagine a 30bb/100 winrate is attainable when one puts that many chips in the middle preflop with such a wide range. Playing with a whale should increase our winrate, not decrease it.
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