Never mind, I missed the 2 limpers before the raise, my bad.

I don't think you take constructive criticism very well. You are very confident which is good, but you are far from a 2/5 crusher imho.
No matter what you say your sizing was awful in hand #8, rookie mistake not to shove there.
I would rather call than not shove.
I would be lying if I said I haven't learned anything from your hand analysis.
But you need to have an open mind and realize you can learn too.

Have you ever said " I was wrong in that hand, and you were right "?
Its really not that hard to do.

I didnt think I took the criticism badly. I said raising flop and shoving turn is fine as is shoving the turn instead of my $200 raise. I just think my raise to $200 is just as good. It may even look scarier than a shove to some people.

I also think calling flop and calling turn are fine. There are lots of way to play this one and I doubt any are a crazy amount better than the others.

The hand I really want opinions on is #6.

It just sounds like you are the only thinking player in the room. If no one realizes what you are doing...

Anyway, question. You have 200-300 in your 2/5 NL player pool? That's an insane high number.

Is your out of town play evening/nights? Apples/oranges. If so.

I don't want to belabor the toughest room question. I get what you say.

I would want to know stack sizes before commenting on hand 6.

I don't think a check is a disgrace either way, but you could be leaving value on the table.
You also have a blocker to the nut straight.
Not sure if I like a raise in early position, depends on the table.
We need more information.
Hope my answer was as vague as your description.

I'd play it similar. Maybe check flop bet turn. Check call river.

The J high flop, turn J hand. If this wasn't a decent player, how might you play it? I usually give more credit for the J to fish in this type situation. I think fold is ok since since you are Oop. Unpack this hand a bit, if you will.

Button has $300ish. Hes the guy who had Q7s vs my KK but this hand happened before I saw him play that nonsense like that.

Me and the BB are around $1100 effective. I dont play deep that often. Would you be more likely to bet when shallower and check when deeper?

No just the opposite. More likely to bet when deeper and check when shallower.

But in this hand I probably bet/fold the turn shallow or deep. There are just so many hands you can beat.
Plus I don't want 2 villains drawing, a bet likely gets us heads up.

There are other thinking players. Not a ton of them, but there are some. Depending on the day and time there are 3-7 2/5 tables so the few really good players are normally spread out.

Id have to check my database to answer the out of town question, but every time I log a session I log it as the poker room name and then a 1, 2, 3, or 4 after the room name. 1 is weekday daytime. 2 is weekday evening. 3 is weekend daytime. 4 is weekend evening. So I can easily sort and compare apples to apples.

There may not be 200-300 2/5 players. I dont know, but lots of times there are 50-70 playing at 1 time, so I threw that number out there as a guess.

Yeah, I agree.

As played I like a raise to 240 on river, it just so hard for anything but the nuts to call.

Wow. Had no idea you had that many tables running.

At the Isles there are about 5 good player that I can think of. People who think deeper and are aware. There are some competent ABC very predictable players who make money at the casino too.

A lot of tricky old men being tricky at the wrong time. And when they are you can value own yourself. Now the interesting thing is that some of the tricky players give away they aren't strong when they raise.

One thing I have seen is someone call my raise, I bet, the turn pairs bottom pair, I bet and they raise... they never had the boat or quads here. They are raising for a free showdown/semi-bluff/knowing where they are at.

Then we have the maniacs who everyone has a headache with except me and Mike. So easy to play against IMO.

We have some wannabe players too. Young backpack "pros" who think raising every button is profitable until OMC flats with AA and lets them 3 barrel themselves.

Now I also play at the HR and I notice a significant dynamic between the young pros in both rooms. At the Isles we get the agro backpack punks but not nearly as much as the HR. You do in at night and these guys are everywhere. The field is different. You very rarely have some tricky player in the mix and way more clueless players that can easily under think you on a level you can't believe is possible.

I think that changes the dynamics of their field when their opponents play more predictable.

PBKC there is a lot of aggression but only one good player I have found @ 2/5. It feels more like a West Coast game. But man that poker room sucks.

I am often accused of overthinking opponents. Maybe I should play the WSOP lol.

I would say you overthink opponents and also spend too much time playing the board and what you think the villain has as opposed to playing your own hand.

Most people ONLY play their own hand. I think you go too far the other way.

Isn't this the exact opposite of what a good player should do? PLaying one's own hand is like step 0 in poker player's evolution.

Please explain

Playing level zero is like a reverse level against high level players.

Sure. But Mike is saying, you can't out think a non-thinking player; is how I usual put it. (I tend to do this too.)

thinking about an opponent's range and taking the most +EV line isn't 'out-thinking a non-thinker'.

Hi Mike,

Posting to sub. Glad you've decided to do this here. Will comment after reading back a few pages.

Well let me show some examples of overthinking.

#1 2/5 - You raise KK MP, BUT OMC nit calls who can also be tricky, rest fold.

FLOP Qc 6s 5s $40 - you bet $30, he raises to $60, you think he has AQ here and min-3b to $120 thinking ok he will call with TP clearly thinking I have AA/KK trying to catch and I can get his stack by the river. OMC nit shoves. You are like wow.... My hand looks like an overpair or a set... his hand looked like AQ.... he must have a set.... you fold.

OMC shows AQ.... "I thought you had KQ"

#2 1/2 - 3 limpers you raise AdKc $12, SB calls, 2 other calls.

$45 FLOP Ks 4d 5d - SB donks $10, other player folds. Seems he is trying to possibly gauge where he is at or has a draw, you raise to $40, he calls
$125 TURN 9s - SB checks, you bet $75, he calls
$275 RIVER 9h - SB checks, perfect card for you. You leveraged him completely for his last $125... you put him all in... he calls and shows you 44 for bottom boat.

"I thought you had a set of KKs"

Of course those two are completely ridiculous but all real hands I witnessed.

#3 2/5 You raise As9s UTG $20, you get 5 callers.
$120 FLOP 9d8s2d - you X, Xs to but who bets $20, you call, rest fold.
$160 TURN 3s - you bet $90, BUT calls after some time.
$340 RIVER 3h - The way the guy played the hand, the timing, all other factors seem like he has a draw.... you check to induce..... He shoves $220.... you call he has 98o.

I have no explanation for this one.

#4 and this is my favorite which I was the hero and experienced.
I raise $20 UTG red QQ, BUT unknown shorty calls, BB unknown calls.

$60 FLOP Ts 8d 3c - BB check, I bet $45, BUT shoves $125, BB shoves $480..... I don't know this guy, I have invested very little in the pot. I look very strong... ok I fold....
Short stack shows AT, BB shoves 95o..... And I can't explain it except colluding.

#5 2/5 CO limps, I raise 8h6h OTB $25, BB calls, CO calls.
$75 FLOP 6c 9c 2d - BB chks, CO donks $35, I raise $100, BB cold calls, CO folds.
$275 TURN 2c - BB donks $50, I raise $225, BB calls
$725 RIVER 7c - BB checks and now I give up. I think maybe this guy has Ac9x, Ac6x, he never has a boat, never has trips.... so on. He is afraid I have a boat..... He shows QcJh. Needless to say I was irritated.

The above **** is just weird.

group non-thinking players follow a more predictable pattern though. The ones above were real head scratchers. They betting patterns are similar but their bet sizes are are based on absolute values. Like I knew a non-thinker who bet $10 when he was bluffing and $20 when he had a value hand @ 1/2 every time. Another player literally said "I guess I bet" when he had it and nothing when he didn't. He bluffed a lot. Another OMC sighed when he had it and said nothing when he didn't have a strong hand.

But a very common scenario I encounter is a player playing passive and then betting for no explainable reason except fear. Here is where I have problems at times.

This I saw....
#6 2/5 MP raises, BUT calls, BB calls
$45 FLOP Ah Ks 3d - BB X, MP bets $25, BUT calls, BB folds.
$95 TURN 8c - MP bets $50, BUT calls
$195 RIVER 9s - MP X, BUT bets $25, MP calls with KQo, BUT shows 77.

Why is he betting there? As a bluff? for value?

#7 EP raises $15, MP 3bs AA $45, all fold EP calls.
$90 FLOP 9s 8s 6d - EP X, MP bets $50, EP calls
$190 TURN Ts - EP X, MP X with As in his hand
$190 RIVER MP bets $35, MP calls....

EP has QdJd - So while this is non-thinker WTF you can follow the pattern of illogic here. He XC for a GS OOP clueless to math. The turn hit his draw and was afraid he was vs a flush, the river didn't change anything and he bet tiny still afraid of the flush but wouldn't fold if he got raised. This is a very common scenario for me. Almost always they have it. My rational is that in a spot like this is there a 16% chance he is overvaluing a hand like QQ or bluffing? I think there is always a 10% spazz factor. But at times you can't really tell. When I play 1/2 pretty much people aren't bluffing. So in this scenario if this guy was a 1/2 player playing 2/5 because it's Friday night and he feels frisky how can you tell?

The other night I played 1/2 got min-check raised by an old lady on a meaningless flop pretty much and I folded my AAs..... She showed me a set of 66s. But 1/2 it is much easier to spot things as people play differently. At times I can't ID this level of play @ 2/5. So I overthink my opponents and the QJs hand is a perfect example. That particular player doesn't bluff, at all, never. But I didn't know that at the time.

Most of these comments are questions, not criticisms, but you might have misplayed a few of them.

2) Limping seems really bad with a maniac in the BB. If you raise his maniac brain will think you're stealing and shove over the top with all kinds of crap. He shoved anyway, but I think if you raise to like $20 he'd shove stuff like 44, K8s, 75s, J9o, etc.

3) Will tricky guy flat with a J on the flop if you bet? A lot of players would raise due to the flush draw. And do you expect him to flat with a J on the turn? I'm skeptical he has a J in a raised pot if he's good. He could have AJ, KJ, QJ, JT, but these hands all have terrible reverse implied odds so he might fold them if they're not suited. But I'm just guessing. I don't know how a good, tricky 5/t player would tend to play here, but calling a raise deep with something like QJo seems pretty bad. If we limit it to the suited combos there are 12 combos of those four hands. It looks to me like he's just stealing the pot on the turn as the check says "I has overpair"

4) Good read I guess. Do players usually donk the flop and shove the turn with a weak top pair?

5) It's not clear what your position is here but the 3-bet seems pretty light if OOP.

6) Hmm...nasty flop for sure, but you're probably ahead. If you intend to pot control on the turn I like a bigger bet on the flop. Checking the turn isn't super terrible but you want to get value from weak drawing hands. You don't have to make a huge bet but I'd bet at least 90. It was a bad river for you unfortunately, but more often than not your opponents will miss. There are a lot of bad rivers: mainly diamonds, an A, or a J, but also a T, a 9, and an 8. But any one of these doesn't mean you've lost as there are many drawing hands out there. If your opponents like to bluff rivers on scary cards then checking might be better, assuming you'd fold to the bluff. If they play straightforwardly I like betting the turn.

8) You aren't doing too well against KQ on the turn (or any made hand really). You're 34% to win vs. KQ. I normally like pushing draws hard but the tiny donk bets from SB look really strong, and the pot size is not good for shoving. You probably don't have much fold equity against a guy donking into the PFR twice. A small raise on the flop would set you up for a better turn shove if he flats, and if villain 3-bets you can consider shoving the flop, but might want to fold as a tiny bet followed by a 3-bet looks crazy strong. As played, just call on the turn. With one card to come you just don't have enough outs and fold equity to warrant shoving, and even less fold equity with your 200 raise. I'm not sure he'd fold a bigger flush draw to a 200 raise. Implied odds are close to 4:1. It's going to be hard for a fish to fold there. Plus he could have a really strong draw like AQcc, AJcc, ATcc, A3cc, 98cc, etc. A lot of your outs may be dirty. If you call the limper probably calls also which builds the pot some without additional risk. If you hit you can get it in but are occasionally coolered. Otherwise give up on the river.

I actually did put SB on a set, most likely KK. But that's just because Saturday I played a hand a lot like this up to the flop. I had the nut flush draw and it came K high. My opponent bet less than half the pot on the flop. She was pretty shallow so I just shoved and she had KK.

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@Winky51

Who has problems with maniacs? These guys are definitely the easiest type of opponent to play against (unless they're good maniacs, but there's like 2 good maniacs in the world) and spew money faster than anyone else. I love maniacs.

Most of the fish have problems with maniacs. And I find some TAGs have problems with maniacs. I have encountered many a TAG who never heard of 2+2, or other forums, have read little books, or study. So yea some TAGs are flying by the seat of their pants and can't handle maniacs.

I have never met a good maniac. I have played vs several good LAGs.

Oh yeah, fish hate them. And bad TAGs. I thought you meant good players as you said everyone but you and MikeStarr.

I haven't encountered any good maniacs either. Or even okay ones. I read somewhere about this tournament pro who was an intelligent maniac but can't recall anything about him except I think he was Middle Eastern. Maybe he's a myth, lol.

Well imagine if everyone's hand is face up and they don't know you see it. Can you be the perfect maniac? Sure. So someone who is a good LAG has a better hand reading ability.