This would also be my thinking too, especially when comparing it to the real gravy train tables.

I mean, yeah, not necessarily tough in that these OMCs are putting us to gross decisions but just tough, relatively speaking, when compared to tables where calling stations are calling down with lol hands for lots of $$$ (where the real money is made at this level). Good luck "running over" a table like this for any real money, especially when every one of these small pots is raked and for every 5 pots you steal you breakeven when the 6th steal doesn't work out so well. Again, relatively speaking.

GitissoeasytocriticizeaP&Gthreadwhenonedoesn'thave aP&GthreadoftheirownG

The game sounds beatable for a decent clip, but you cannot make mistakes in the big pots as they are more than likely going to have the stones in the big pots. You should be winning a ton of small/medium pots variance free and without SD.

fwiw the pbkc is my regular room and the majority of people have nothing but terrible things to say about the isle since the change in management. No comps but i love the kennel

That must be at PBKC, right? The 5/10 at the Isle is $2000 max. Thats where I play 90% of the time.

Yes they are right. The new ownership sucks and they are chasing away all of the casual players and whales leaving just the diehard guys who live nearby. The room sucks more and more each day. Not just the game quality but everything else about the room in general.

Yea the 1500 max is at the kennel. I don't play it but i have seen it running a lot more than usual. It mostly ran just on the weekends but recently a lot of the guys have been getting it going during the week in the evening. I mostly play 1/2 and 2/5 on the weekends when its soft. I've played the 5/10 300 max there a bunch and just came to realize in the long run its going to be -EV game IMO. I love the action at the kennel though

Why do you think the short stack 5/10 is -EV? I love that game.

I really liked it at first, don't get me wrong. Starting off ss, flipping and building up a stack, its a gamblers game at heart but Its not a game i would want to make my "primary" game especially long term. There's a lot of adjustments i would have to make in my style personally if that were my regular game of choice and after playing it a few times i felt like the 2/5 there for many reasons would be the way to go. It does attract a certain player pool that can be +ev at times (old, rich, limping droolers) but i've never been the guy who enjoys buying in for 30bb in the attempt to catch/hold and run it up. I like trying exerting my edge from the start and ss poker is not it for me... if that makes any sense

also the the 2/5 can often have just as many droolers but with more money in play

I think the biggest reason the short stack 5/10 is highly +EV is because once people start getting deeper, you are now playing a semi normal 5/10 game but against people who couldnt beat a 1/2 game. They have no idea what to do wen they are sitting with $800+. They dont know the correct adjustments to make from short stacked to a normal stack. (Not they even know how to play a short stack in the first place)

A few days ago I ran like garbage in All ins and ran $775 below All in EV (at 1/2). I mentioned it was my worst day every by that measure. In the last few days it turned around and I got every penny of that lost equity at 1/2 back. For the month my All in EV number is +$25 at 1/2, meaning I'm $25 over EV. It rarely evens out like that especially this quickly but it sure is nice when it does. I cant remember all the all in hands because there were quite a few, but here are a couple.

1) UTG and MP limp. I raise to $12 JhJd. BB and both limpers call.

Flop ($50) Td4c2c. BB leads $14. EP calls and MP calls.

They have $60, $70 and $30 behind so I shove it in. BB folds, EP and MP both call.

Pot ($195ish)
Turn 4s
River Ad

BB and EP are brothers. They told each other what they had and I heard. BB folded QT. EP called with KT. MP showed Tc8c.

2) Im at a new table that just opened. In the first 45 mins Im raising like crazy. The guy to my left is playing pretty aggro post flop and has called 5 of my raises in a row and we are in a mini war. We are about even so far.

EP limps. I raise to $12 KdTc. My enemy calls again. BB and the limper call.

Flop ($50) Ks 4h 5h. Checked to me. I check. Aggro dude bets $33. It folds back to me. I call.

Turn ($116) 4c. I check. He bets something like $60. I didnt count because I was planning to crai which I did. He calls off another $40ish with Kh2h.

River 2 and Im good.

3) EP limps. I raise to $15 AcJc. The button shoves all in for $34. EP calls. I call.

Flop ($115) 8d4s2c. Check/check
Turn ($115) Th. Check/check
River ($115) Jd. He checks. I bet $25. He folds and I beat the short stacks AK.

4) I open to $10 AsQs. 2 guys call in MP. The cutoff 3 bets to $25 with another $35 behind. This is kind of a stupid spot. These people dont 3 bet lite at all and this is a 50 year old lady. There's a good chance she has AA/KK so folding would be fine. I guess shoving is OK since shes so short and theres dead money in there but since Im suited I decided to call and keep the other 2 guys in. However, they both folded.

Flop ($73) AT4. I check. She shoves $35. I call and beat JJ.

Just to rekick a dead horse regarding the uselessness of all-in EV calcs, here's one from my session yesterday:

UTG raises to lol $9 in my 1/3 NL game. He's totally new to the game and raising exactly on the strength of his hand, plus raising lol small amounts like this at a loose table. 4 calls. I have AQo in the BB and have been purposely shorstacking a $200 stack. I raise to $60 so that I can setup a PSB shove on any flop (good preflop FE and I don't even mind a call where I can also flex my postflop FE if behind to a pair). I'm called by the last overlimper on the Button. 532hh flop, I have none of it, and open ship for the ~PSB.

I have AQ.

My opponent has 33 (called off ~1/3rd of his stack preflop to setmine).

I got in $60 preflop as a slight dog, and $140 postflop drawing almost dead.

So according to the EV calcs, I guess I'm the fish and played it wrong and therefore have to go back to the drawing board?

Gdon'tgethunguponall-inEVcalcs,imoG

Xf ldo

If you don't know how to spike a 4 with two cards to come, I don't know what to tell you. (Every poker player I play against, knows that trick vs me.)

This doesnt prove that All in calcs are useless. You can play the hands any way you see fit. The All in EV calcs dont tell you how to play the hand. They dont tell you if you suck and they dont tell you if anyone else sucks. What they tell you is that how much more or less you are winning than your equity in the hand, when you do decide to get all in.

So the guy called a big reraise with 33? Maybe he put you on AQ? Maybe hes a clown? It doesnt matter. What matters is that if this same thing happens 1 million times the same way, you will get back an avg of about $65 per hand. You got back zero so you ran $65 under EV. Its the same reason people "run it twice". They want to get closer to their actual EV and lower their variance.

Calculating an adjusted win rate based on your actual EV gives you a better idea of your win rate than your actual win rate. It makes the long term, shorter.

I said it's not tough. It just requires adjustment. An adjustment I don't want to make for a mediocre winrate. For me playing a table of predictable nits yields a decent non-volatile winrate. Playing a bunch of droolers yields a high volatile winrate.

Having one tricky player is fine. When the whole table is tricky that's a problem. You have to bet less, play carefully, bluff at the right spots, and catch big hands.

Their tricky play loses them money but it also loses me money. It also decreases the accuracy of my decisions.

Here are some examples.

Limp, limp, AA limps!!!, I raise, 1st limper calls, 2nd limper folds, AA just calls. I got QQ and get a low flop. All it takes is one hand like this to wipe my winrate for the hour. And at this casino they do this so often 1-2 times in a 6 hour period I get nailed by some assclown who does this.

Once I saw a pot where AA, KK, and QQ limped. There was one bet and it got checked down because the board was 98472. AA lost so much money. My head exploded when I saw the hands.

This had to have been my most difficult hand. OMC(tricky) limps, I raise QQ, I get 3 callers. OMC calls.

FLOP QT3 - X, I bet, fold, fold, OMC calls
TURN Jr - X, I bet, he ships all in.

I sit there for a while thinking what could he be possibly doing this with. He doesn't play 98s up front. He raises AK. I really thought he had QJ and hit 2 pair thinking I wouldn't bomb AK in this spot. I call he has KK of all ****ing hands. 9 on the river of course rewarding his play.

This is the madness of the Isles. I already gotta play Ignition different than live. I don't need a 3rd way to learn. It ****s up my perception. And HR is a much higher winrate than Isles. I was struggling with $15 an hour @ Isles on a horrid -EV swing. At HR I'm @ $70 an hour so far, not big sample, with a 0EV swing effectively. People play more like California there, or what is expected.

So like I said, toughest isn't the word..... least profitable is the correct word. Perception altering is the right word. It's kind of like brain washing. You get used to live play a certain way. If you go to a casino where the play is weird it distorts your perception of things which might make you have more difficult decisions which are more standard. Similar to having a bad run. You get raised all the time you start seeing MUBs if they actually have you beat or thinking everyone is bluffing you. It distorts expectations at poker.

Thus screw the Isles.

wut

+3.5


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ftfy

Winky's saying he's like a baseball hitter who's made his career hitting fastballs. He prefers playing against the pitcher who only throws fastballs instead of playing 3 pitchers, one with a fastball, one with a sinker and one with a curveball. All of them are mediocre, but it takes a while between adjusting for what pitches to expect.

The more hands an hour you get, the nittier/tougher the game tends to be. The less hands you get per hour the spazziest/good the game tends to be. There's a tradeoff. I think even with less hands per hour, game is usually more profitable.

I laughed but inaccurate.

I don't want to invest the time into something that is an anomaly in the poker world.... A table full of tricky illogical old men.

I can easily go to another casino and make way more money.

It's like investing in GE stock at the moment. Good company that is in the ****ter now, has a great return, and will require a lot of time for it to give me a good ROI. Instead I'd rather invest in Apple which has a better ROI in the same time frame.

I'd rather make a lot an hour @ HR than an almost average amount an hour @ Isles.

I even play 1/2 if the game is deep because it is worth more per hour than the 2/5 games if they aren't that good with much lower variance.

It's about the money not ego. Can I play vs any kind of player. But it just isn't worth playing at the Isles.

Be the same way as if you sat at a table where everyone was raising every hand 10% of their stack. Can you be profitable? Sure. Is there a strategy? Definitely. But why bother when the table next to it has 2 nits to the left of an empty seat and 6 fish?

We've all seen some guy sit down and go on a massive heater and win a couple buy ins in 45 mins after we've been playing 4 hours and cant catch a hand. That's never really happened to me playing 2/5 but yesterday evening at 1/2 I finally found out what it feels like. I went from $300 to $1000 in 90 mins.

1) Button straddle. BB completes. EP limps. I raise to $25 AcAs. The button and BB call

Flop ($85) Ad 9h 8s. BB checks. I bet $20. Button calls HU.

Turn ($125) Tc. The button is a young guy who is sitting beside his friend. Ive only been at the table for a few mins but my side of the table is grumbling about the 2 young guys trying win every pot. So I check to let him try to steal it. Im sure my line looks like JJ-KK to him. He bets $60. I crai and he folds for his last $75. If the board was dryer I might just call and let him hang himself on the river but not this time.

2) Different button straddles. EP limps. I raise to $25 JhJd. Guy from HH1 calls in MP. The button and limper also call

Flop ($100) Js4c3c. Checked to me. I bet $40. MP raises to $100. It folds back to me and I shove. He calls off his last $100. He says "you got a set?" I said Yes and he slammed his cards down. They bounced over and he had AA.

3) EP raises to $8. 6 people to the flop. I have 66 in LP.

Flop ($50). Jc8c2c. Checked around
Turn ($50) 6c. Checked around.
River ($50) Jd. Checked to me. I bet $25 and get one caller who mucks.

4) 2 EP limps. I limp Jh8h in MP. LP raises $9. There's 4 callers to me so I call.

Flop ($55) Jd 6c 4d. Checked around
Turn ($55) 7d. Checked to me. I bet $20. Cutoff calls.
River ($95) Qc. I bet $20. He calls and mucks. That's probably a bad river bet. What did he call with? A7?

5) Button straddle. The tightest guy at the table raises to $15 UTG. I call in early MP with JhJd. LP and the button call

Flop ($60) As Jc 4c. UTG bets $50 with $80 behind. I call and we are HU.
Turn ($160) 8c. He very nervously and very quickly shoves all in. I snap call. He has AQ no club.

Here are some stats that some might find interesting. I've been keeping track of the results of all non premium hands that I raise. Im calling premium hands TT+, AJ+, KQs so this category includes hands like AT, QT, J8s, A5s, K9s.

I have a separate category for raising super lite. Hands like suited connectors and other total junk.

I have my 1/2 and 2/5 stats separately. Here are the stats for 1/2. Ive had some all ins on these hands. 1 or 2 big all ins can really skew the numbers and Ive run good in these hands so Im including "adjusted profit" on these hands. If you follow my thread at all you know what this means.

In 188 hands so far:

No callers. Stolen blinds and limps
38%
Avg profit of
$5.78 or 2.89 BBs......so with an avg of 1.4 limpers I still take it down preflop 38% of the time. Stealing limps and blinds may not sound like much money but it adds up.

When I get callers
62%
Avg profit of
$12.64 or 6.32 BBs
Adjusted profit of
$8.09 or 4.05BBs

Am I winning so far in the hands that I raise super lite?

No callers
29%
Avg profit of
$6 or 3BBs

Callers
71%
Avg profit of
$6.83 or 3.42BBs
Adjusted profit of
$5.50 or 2.75BBs

3 betting lite (hands lower than TT/ AK/ AQ)
No callers
50%
Avg profit of
$13.12 or 6.56 BBs
Callers
50%
Avg profit of
$87.50 or 43.75 BBs
Adjusted profit of
$80 or 40BBs