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Old 11-21-2019, 02:03 PM   #326
SamuraiJon
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

There are 3 groups of people with Ignition 'fishiness' <--pun intended?

1. Ignition is rogged, lulz
2. Ignition has a new influx of crushers and that accounts for the lack of results
3. The unsure crowd

We can discount #2 and #3. Those are self explanatory. But, #1 has been growing legs with well established regs that have never shouted 'online poker is rogged'.

I've played for a while now and I don't think I've ever seen known names/established regs that are in suspicion of something going on with a site. Ever. And it just so happens that the regs are in suspicion around the same time.

I understand the 'well it's correlational variance' and like minds want to blame results on something else. But that has NEVER happened with other sites. Ever.

I also understand the hesitation in sending DBs/hands to a stable. That is plain risky. But the flaming that is going on around a clear suspicion of a site. Come on.
-This site operates 'illegally' in some countries/states
-Bovada sold to Lynton Limited in mid 2016
-There have been many updates to the site just this year
-Ignition has a web-based client and web based exploits aren't unheard of
-Top regs coming forward around the same time

Can someone point me in the direction of where this has occurred before?

This is probably going to be like arguing religion, but to those who just think it's a new influx that accounts for all of it, why do you think the # of people coming forward should be thrown aside?

We can discount sending hands/DBs out of it. We all get the risks associated.

Hoping for a healthy discussion and not a flamewar.
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Old 11-23-2019, 08:37 AM   #327
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

Regs are soft and lazy. More people are VPNing onto the site and even 8-12 tabling with multiple accounts. It's still extremely soft compared to all other sites. Maybe git gud instead of whining.

Fwiw I think ignition is kinda rigged with cashouts/deposits. But it even outs.

What's even expected to happen if things are proven? It's an unregulated site. Also they would think that regs losing is a good thing.
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Old 11-23-2019, 02:33 PM   #328
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

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Originally Posted by djz View Post
Regs are soft and lazy. More people are VPNing onto the site and even 8-12 tabling with multiple accounts. It's still extremely soft compared to all other sites. Maybe git gud instead of whining.

Fwiw I think ignition is kinda rigged with cashouts/deposits. But it even outs.

What's even expected to happen if things are proven? It's an unregulated site. Also they would think that regs losing is a good thing.
Okay so if you believe people are VPN'ing onto the site and playing on multiple accounts to get past the table limit than you at the minimum believe cheating is occurring since those things are cheating. But I agree nothing is going to be done about any of it.
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Old 11-23-2019, 06:28 PM   #329
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

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Okay so if you believe people are VPN'ing onto the site and playing on multiple accounts to get past the table limit than you at the minimum believe cheating is occurring since those things are cheating.
I mean, I know it to be a fact. I've talked to several people doing it from restricted countries and I'm in some affiliate chats where these type of deals are offered.

I won't play 3 handed on Ignition even if I think both players are whales...this is a common trap on China Apps (people playing like fish against each other than like good regs against you).

I even said I think the site is "kinda rigged" heh.

I just don't think giving hands to NH or talking about it on 2p2/group chats is productive. Nothing happened with Pokermaster despite all the super blatant cheating+botting that went on there. Idk gotta adapt. I just stopped playing on PM once I could tell was full of cheaters. And as I went on forever about, there is no upside to giving NH hands and potentially a ton of downside (if his methods work and then they can figure out some good strategies against the pool).

I still think Ignition is really soft and not so bad (e.g. a PM type situation) where I would stop playing on there.
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Old 11-23-2019, 07:05 PM   #330
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

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I mean, I know it to be a fact. I've talked to several people doing it from restricted countries and I'm in some affiliate chats where these type of deals are offered.

I won't play 3 handed on Ignition even if I think both players are whales...this is a common trap on China Apps (people playing like fish against each other than like good regs against you).

I even said I think the site is "kinda rigged" heh.

I just don't think giving hands to NH or talking about it on 2p2/group chats is productive. Nothing happened with Pokermaster despite all the super blatant cheating+botting that went on there. Idk gotta adapt. I just stopped playing on PM once I could tell was full of cheaters. And as I went on forever about, there is no upside to giving NH hands and potentially a ton of downside (if his methods work and then they can figure out some good strategies against the pool).

I still think Ignition is really soft and not so bad (e.g. a PM type situation) where I would stop playing on there.
I agree it's unlikely to be productive but it's ridiculous to victim shame the people who want to attempt to do something about it. People are cheating the system and there's nothing wrong with someone wanting to call it out. Has nothing to do with getting better at poker or not.
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Old 11-23-2019, 09:34 PM   #331
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

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Originally Posted by TheTyman9 View Post
Okay so if you believe people are VPN'ing onto the site and playing on multiple accounts to get past the table limit than you at the minimum believe cheating is occurring since those things are cheating. But I agree nothing is going to be done about any of it.
That's not cheating. At least it has nothing at all to do with what we're talking about. People have been vpning onto poker sites since the dawn of time and the guys who are multi accounting aren't really doing anything too unethical unless playing on the same table as themselves.
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Old 11-24-2019, 01:01 AM   #332
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

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That's not cheating. At least it has nothing at all to do with what we're talking about. People have been vpning onto poker sites since the dawn of time and the guys who are multi accounting aren't really doing anything too unethical unless playing on the same table as themselves.
I'm not the one who brought it up but it absolutely is cheating. And the multiple accounts to get past the table cap has a huge effect on everyone else's EV so it's silly to say they aren't doing anything too unethical by doing it.
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Old 11-24-2019, 02:40 AM   #333
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

thought id add my experience w bodog to this thread. started on bodog88 on exactly 7/20 of this year. managed to go on a 50 BI upswing over 55k hands. I was probably running hot but i felt the field was soft as well. then starting around 9/21 i have lost about 32 BIs over 33k hands. maybe dumped a few buys max during that stretch from tilt but very minimal. been playing professionally for 10+ years and tilting is not a leak of mine. i plan to tough it out and am chalking it off to variance for now but i find it strange this issue is being brought up around the same time im on a downswing that i didnt think possible w this field.

for what its worth i am playing strictly 1/2 non zoom
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Old 11-24-2019, 06:28 AM   #334
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

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Originally Posted by TheTyman9 View Post
I'm not the one who brought it up but it absolutely is cheating. And the multiple accounts to get past the table cap has a huge effect on everyone else's EV so it's silly to say they aren't doing anything too unethical by doing it.
It's not cheating. They still have to play those extra tables exactly the same as anyone else would. If anything they're at a disadvantage since they have more tables to split their focus on. Obviously it's against the site rules etc etc but this has nothing to do with actual cheating people are saying is going on.
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Old 11-24-2019, 06:59 AM   #335
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

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2. If you did send Nick your Ignition database, it's impossible for him to "exploit you" with it. This isn't how database analysis works. I know because I currently do all the database analysis for Poker Detox. (I am Nick's brother.) Here is my journal on RIO: https://www.google.com/search?q=mobi...hrome&ie=UTF-8

For any meaningful analysis you need at least 20M hands, but upwards of 100M is ideal. You can currently buy 20M hands for a few hundred bucks on various sites. Poaching 250-500k hands at a time from individual players is totally ridiculous from a cost effectiveness standpoint.
You are either being disingenuous or you are not very good at data analysis.

With a small fraction of your 20 million minimum sample I could generate a ton of useful population exploits. You're right, that data couldn't be used to directly exploit any single player but it could be used to exploit player pool leaks which in the hands of a CFP program would impact the win rates of other regs.

If you are interested in putting together a case I recommend researching your own players and finding out what has changed. If there is cheating it will be reflected in the data. Then ask other regs to run specific filters for those spots and get before and after data.

I have no reason to question this groups integrity, I've heard of them but not in any detail positive or negative, but I think sending in databases is a bad idea.
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Old 11-24-2019, 07:11 AM   #336
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

Doing smth forbidden by the site tos is cheating. Even if these guys are bad regs playing nitty poker, they are reducing the number of seats available for recs and thus reducing the ev of everyone. One cheater incentivizes others to do the same (dishonest ppl who couldn’t think it themselves, players trying to reduce the advantage of the first cheaters etc).

Finding if sites are actually rigged concerns me a lot, very interested in following this discussion, keep them coming
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Old 11-24-2019, 07:17 AM   #337
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

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You are either being disingenuous or you are not very good at data analysis.

With a small fraction of your 20 million minimum sample I could generate a ton of useful population exploits. You're right, that data couldn't be used to directly exploit any single player but it could be used to exploit player pool leaks which in the hands of a CFP program would impact the win rates of other regs.

If you are interested in putting together a case I recommend researching your own players and finding out what has changed. If there is cheating it will be reflected in the data. Then ask other regs to run specific filters for those spots and get before and after data.

I have no reason to question this groups integrity, I've heard of them but not in any detail positive or negative, but I think sending in databases is a bad idea.
Donít forget some of the guys here might be better than him and his team, and he would be getting free info (coaching) to improve his and his team games. No need of a huge db. And again, for free
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Old 11-24-2019, 10:56 AM   #338
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

Isn't Radiosick genuinely a sick player? His graphs would suggest so...
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:26 AM   #339
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

From his RIO thread, it seems he is indeed. Getting a ton of “private” info on his winning competition can’t be bad. Even assuming the risk of him using the databases for other purposes is low, I wouldn’t assume it’s 0. So I can understand why some ppl reacted badly when he asked and after his arrogant responses.

Still interested in finding if these sites are rigged or if there are some blatant cheating going on, as a fellow online player.
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Old 11-24-2019, 02:18 PM   #340
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

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Originally Posted by meale View Post
It's not cheating. They still have to play those extra tables exactly the same as anyone else would. If anything they're at a disadvantage since they have more tables to split their focus on. Obviously it's against the site rules etc etc but this has nothing to do with actual cheating people are saying is going on.
Idk why you want to downplay it, but it literally is by definition cheating. It has a significant effect on the games and isn't allowed and is stealing EV from people not breaking the rules. There is no way you actually believe they are at a disadvantage and worse off because they are playing more tables than the cap. Just because they might have a lower win rate because of the extra tables doesn't leave them at a disadvantage. If they were worse off from doing it they wouldn't be going through the hassle to break the rules. Think everyone can agree collusion and botting is a more scummy form of cheating but it is still cheating and you are stealing from others by doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FazendeiroBH View Post
Doing smth forbidden by the site tos is cheating. Even if these guys are bad regs playing nitty poker, they are reducing the number of seats available for recs and thus reducing the ev of everyone. One cheater incentivizes others to do the same (dishonest ppl who couldn’t think it themselves, players trying to reduce the advantage of the first cheaters etc).

Finding if sites are actually rigged concerns me a lot, very interested in following this discussion, keep them coming
This
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Old 11-24-2019, 02:58 PM   #341
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

Break the TOS and it's cheating
Cut and dry
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Old 11-24-2019, 05:59 PM   #342
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

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Originally Posted by djz View Post
Regs are soft and lazy. More people are VPNing onto the site and even 8-12 tabling with multiple accounts. It's still extremely soft compared to all other sites. Maybe git gud instead of whining.

Fwiw I think ignition is kinda rigged with cashouts/deposits. But it even outs.

What's even expected to happen if things are proven? It's an unregulated site. Also they would think that regs losing is a good thing.
I cash out, and get the same results. Haven't deposited in awhile. I believe the cash out hoopla is hogwash.
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Old 11-24-2019, 09:37 PM   #343
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

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I cash out, and get the same results. Haven't deposited in awhile. I believe the cash out hoopla is hogwash.
He prob means rigged as in they will wait to pay out btc if it benefits them to do so with the price trends. Not that you get the doomswitch after cashing out.
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Old 11-24-2019, 10:37 PM   #344
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

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Idk why you want to downplay it, but it literally is by definition cheating.

Prob because hes doing it himself.
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Old 11-25-2019, 02:03 AM   #345
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

I'm not trying to downplay it, but I guess when I think of the word "cheating" I think of people sharing cards or using real time solvers, Chinese ****s sandwiching you and backraising etc. Maybe it's that I have actually played in games where actual visiable overt blatant cheating was happening.

The whole point of this discussion is not to do with the semantics of the word cheating nor how virtuous you are for condemning regs who want to add a couple extra tables... I don't think anybody attributes this "people losing at highstakes on Bodog all of a sudden" phenomenon to bad regs playing more tables than the cap.

Quote:
Prob because hes doing it himself.
I'm too ******ed to focus on more than 4 tables at once tbh
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Old 11-25-2019, 02:37 AM   #346
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

Lol yeah meale everyone telling you how wrong you are is just virtue signaling. Nothing to do with the fact that these poor "disadvantaged" regs you speak of are cheating everyone else out of significant amounts of money.
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Old 11-25-2019, 05:01 AM   #347
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

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He prob means rigged as in they will wait to pay out btc if it benefits them to do so with the price trends. Not that you get the doomswitch after cashing out.
Yeah they have a TA department that is generally pretty good.
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Old 11-26-2019, 06:39 AM   #348
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

I had a 9.5k withdrawal get locked up and had numerous follow ups to their btc payment provider (they dont do the btc payments themselves) get dodged for 4 months until it finally got paid out a week ago. Def some intentionality there with price of btc imo as they can cherry pick when to pay you out whenever they want over an indefinite period of time (I was informed up to six months)
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Old 11-26-2019, 03:21 PM   #349
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

So far we've discussed:
1. Multi-accounting
2. Cashout roggedness
3. Risks associated with HH/DBs (this is a given and nobody is disputing this. I don't think we have to revisit this topic).
4. An influx of VPNers

At a minimum, we've uncovered that there's a new breed of multi-accounting players. Definitions if it's cheating or not can be put to rest. This has been well discussed over the inception of online poker and we all know how sites/players stand on the issue.

Explain to me how a multi-accounter doesn't seat the same table multiple times and sometimes collude with himself? Seems like some seem to think that doesn't happen and I genuinely don't understand why that would never happen. Or, better yet, why this shouldn't be dealt with immediately?

Would it be fair to say if someone multi-accounts, they're more likely to use real-time solvers or banned software?

I'll save the trouble for devil's advocate memes "OMGADZ, YOU PLAYS DA ONLINE POKAHS DUMMAZZ, ACCEPT THE RISK, GET BETTER HU4ROLLZ LULZ. BUUURRRDUUURGS GUNNA TURK URR JURBS IF DEY BAN HALF DA MA-UURRS. BURDURG DOESN'T CARE ABUURT JURR BURRSHEET BESIDES INCREASE RAKE IS BETTAH DNEGS4LYFE. AND... MOST OF ALL... EPSTEIN DIDN'T KILL HIMSELF, LDO."

I don't think talking about game integrity or putting pressure on a company to ensure game integrity is a bad thing. Just because it was lost hope on one site, doesn't mean it's a lost hope on all sites. It would be a good thing for both fish and regs, if it wasn't a software exploit, at least TOS exploits were expunged from the pool.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:18 PM   #350
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Re: Success, Sobriety, and Financial Freedom: Out of Poker Retirement and back to Mid/Hi Stakes

Stable of nits can no longer win, seeks database of HH's from outside players. I won't oblige but i will tell you you're getting 4b super light
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