donkr on plo basic strategy

Give us your top 5 leaks!

Obviously going ALL IN for the first guy and Rehab for the second guy.

Is there any economic reason to spend time learning PLO, or is it just for the fun/challenge of learning a new game? From what I've read, PLO winrates are not necessarily better than NLHE, and the variance is considerably higher.

I can see the advantage of playing at a soft PLO table in a small market where the NLHE games are tougher, but is there anything else I'm missing?

Where have you read that PLO winrates might not be higher than NLHE? I have searched hard on the subject and could barely find any data on Live PLO Winrates.

A few other reasons though that I can think of for learning PLO are:

1) It makes you a better overall poker player. Learning PLO will probably help you become better at NLHE inadvertently

2) Sometimes the most profitable (or biggest) game in the room is PLO. Therefore, it helps you economically to be able to play PLO.

-Cheers!

Well it's not all about money.

The game is really fun. I find that learning a new game helps re-enforce other poker concepts in a more general way (outs, odd, ranges, etc) that makes it easier to apply to NLHE when the game/table conditions change. It's also a nice change of pace that helps me keep on my A game rather than get bored.

While I think you're right that in a *good* PLO game your win-rate is probably lower on a BB/100 basis ... I don't think that holds for a lot of low limit PLO games. Since there are so many really, *really* bad players to exploit I think we can have a *higher* win rate in a good PLO game. Especially when it starts getting deep and people make "pot" bets without realizing just how big the pot is.

to tack onto that.

PLO is a much newer game to the general population so they haven't really figured out how to play it solidly yet. I sure haven't. There's a ton of profit to be had there. Also, the degen gambly guys are all moving to PLO because in their eyes it's just flop a draw and shove. If you understand the game you can get all in with dominating draws. It is more swingy, but you can really destroy the game over the long run right now.

The only problem I see is that it bleeds the whales quicker. PLO was all the rage in my card room for about 9 months and it almost shut the place down because everyone went broke at the same time. A lot of them never came back, and those who did were not nearly as insane as they had been.

Doyle talked about playing lots of games in super system. If you only ever play your best game, no one will want to play with you. Give action to get action. My pool thinks I know nothing about PLO. I probably know more than most of them, but that's only because they know nothing. If I can get to the point where I'm a competent PLO player without them knowing it (VERY possible given the way the game is) then it'll be printing money.

I got on Bovada the other day and punted a buy in playing PLO. Lots of work to be done.

In case anyone hasn't picked up on it already, Spike and I play in the same general pool.

That PLO dabbling perfectly illustrated some of Hwang's points about building and maintaining a PLO game with an appropriate structure. $1/2 PLO is so much more like $2/5 NLHE BR-wise than people realize. I hope the weekly Sunday PLO game gets going. Maybe once a week will be enough to scratch everybody's PLO itch without crushing their bankrolls.


Made my first major mistake in a while last night. Check called big turn and river bets with a single pair on a board where the SD/FDs missed. As I was evaluating the $250 river shove I knew there were some bluffs/worse hands in his range, and some huge hands too. The guy over-bet a bunch of draws earlier in the session. Everything about the hand felt like the he was nervous/scared and I talked myself from my initial impression to just say ****it and fold into a call. He had flopped a straight with some gappers for the nuts (the only one combo that made it).

I knew better for all of my mistakes in that hand, but the live read and maybe some of my recent run-good clouded my judgement Bah. I'll play better tonight.

My 0 to infinity moment:
PLO, hope that's ok, and some details may be off. I basically write down hands about every other session. I feel it takes away from my focus, but helps a lot in the long run, so I compromise by focusing more half the time and writing hands down half the time. Prolly shows a (relatively) bad short-term memory, but owe well.
/derail
H has AK88 ss MP, limps behind some limpers for 25 (game is 5/T/25). H stack about 5k. Starting to get overly tight due to halfish of my roll on the table (bought in shot take for 2k and ran it up).

7 to the flop for 25 each. Nice game, eh.

Flop (175) 468 ss (not my suit)
checks to H who bets 175.
HJ (solid pro, I think) and BTN (solid rec player - don't worry there are bad players to H's right, and in LJ - for other hands) call.

Turn (700) 468, 4
H bets 500 (max bet)
Call, call, doh.

River (2200) 4684, T
H checks
HJ 500
BTN rr to 1000

H tanks and tanks and

That's sick.

Edit1: flop was ds, not ss.

Big fold there. Very well done. Tough to see quads coming but there was enough action that you gotta think youre no good. I'd say in my bit of PLO, a river raise is the nuts and nothing but the nuts.

Thank you. Very proud of that fold.

Awesome fold!! Nice hand

Saw the same guy from my bad call again last night. Watched him re-raise horribly marginal hands (turned second pair + no draw) and lose, call bets with QQ on a AK5 board with big 4 way action (to go runner runner straight that he didn't even see until tabling), and bet out/call big with flopped draws. Basically a lot of really large bets with his entire range, bluffish and nutty. Still probably should have folded the other night, but at least I feel better about ranging him wider than only the nuts with a big river bet.

I have a lot of trouble with guys like this and slowly getting better.

One thing im realizing is that its not as simple as to say "this guy bluffs a lot and the draws missed, so im going to hero call off my stack with one pair"

Board texture, reads, your image, his image, his range, sizing tells, live tells, his mood (tilting? Is he down a lot?), metagame, bluffing frequency (some guys will show a bluff and then take the same line next time with a value hand)... These all factor into deciding how to play against bad aggros. I find that these are some of the most difficult but most profitable players to play against... Its so unbelievably important to pay close attention to these guys and get a good read over long sample sizes under various conditions

We didnt get all the details of your hand where you made a "bad call" and we dont have all the details about his wide aggro range in the hands you mention here... So its hard to say whether that call was actually bad or not

I know im not telling you anything you dont already know... Really just reinforcing for myself

--

I played a 2/5 hand on Thursday vs a young white guy whos a very bad LAG. The good regs love having him in the game, but he definitely puts us in a lot of tricky spots.

I make it 20 from HJ with KJo. Heads up vs V who limp/calls UTG. Flop J72 with two spades (i have no spade). I bet 30 flop, he calls. Turn was 6x, i bet 60 he makes it 160 pretty quickly. I think for a while and call. River is another 2x, i check, he shoves for almost 300, i tank for a while and call. He said "good call" and showed 9T for busted gutshot draw.

Thats kind of a "reverse 0 to infinity" moment bc i made kind of a hero call with a one pair hand. But i feel good about it here because i had strong enough reads to calmly think through the hand and narrow his range down to occasionally 77 or more often a bluff (and he bluffs with a very high frequency). I was lucky for the board texture to play out vastly in my favor, it would have been a lot tougher call if the flush draw came in, or the river was like a 9 or T instead of a 2.

That said, there are similar Vs (especially aggro asians) who have rocked my world taking similar lines on more difficult board textures... While they were capable of taking the exact same line with a bluff. Its difficult to tell, and i still do need to fold a lot more versus these guys.

Angrist: if you didn't know then that he was that wild then it would have been a good fold. You have new info now.

HH: 0 to infinity simply means slowing down and making a good decision that's not based in emotion or Mike Caro's "short circuit theorem." Make a smart move every time.


Last night I got unlucky several times and then made a couple of bad plays after when I should have just let it go. I was overreaching a bit. Trying too hard even when the game wasn't giving me opportunities. It's my Achilles heel. Better luck next time.


Still it sucks to get 3 outed on your third hand of the night.

My point is that it could have been a good fold even with this new info, based on more specific reads than "he is aggro with draws and a wide range"

Haha i was thinking of "0 to infinity" as making a good fold... But thanks for explaining, i understand the semantics now lol

Sorry to hear about your runbad last night. Just try to stay focused on making the best decisions.

Last night I decided to go back because I had such a bad taste in my mouth from the last session. I was only going to be able to play for a few hours, but that was enough. I played one hand poorly, but otherwise did really well. I was card dead for a lot of the time, but didn't force things nearly as much. I made a couple of bad preflop calls in EP where I probably should have just foregone the hand, but it didn't hurt me this time around. That leads me to my 0 to infinity moment for the week (month, whatever. we can keep posting them).

I called a straddle in EP with JT and as expected, we went 5 ways to the flop.

Flop: T86 ($55).
UTG leads out for $30.

I really wanted to call (maybe raise) this bet. Then I stopped and thought about it. I knew this was a bad play. 3 to act behind me. Wet board. If someone has a big hand, I'm donating $30. If they're drawing or even have a better J, I'm in a crappy spot for the rest of the hand. So...... I folded.

All three behind me called. Turn was a J. Two flushes got all in and the third player had me beaten too. It was a feel good moment.

My leaks were pretty much under control. I left when I meant to leave. I didn't get into crazy deep stacked calling spots with one pair. I didn't loosen up and start donking around later on. I took a few breaks. I'm really going to start focusing on the whole leaving when I mean to thing. I don't think I've realized it, but I think it's a pretty big spew spot for me. I need to just get up and leave when I determine that I'm closing in on the end of my A game rope. It's a new thing to work on.


Two fun hands. One just to relay for fun. One questionable one.

1.

I'm in a really good seat with a LAG whale two to my right (covers), and a loose calling fish directly to my right ($320). I've got about $800 at the time. I've been really tight so far with no real good hands to play in quite a while.

I raise 9T UTG+1 to $20. Folds to LAG whalein SB who calls. BB loose calling fish calls.

This is usually a fold for me, but in this instance I had two things working for me.

#1 I had a nit image and I had nits all the way to the LAG whale in the SB.
#2 I had the two biggest marks at the table in the blinds. So, widening the range was essential. I especially wanted to get into hands with the LAG whale who had earlier called my squeeze 3 bet with J8ss. Just an example.

There was a very good chance I'd be 3 ways in position with initiative with a hand that is really well set up to win a stack off someone.

Anyway...
Flop: 578 ($62)
Checks to me. I bet $40. Both call.

Turn: 5784 ($182)
Checks to me. I bet $100. Both call.

River: 57846


SB checks. BB goes all in for $160. Hero?


This was a really rare spot where raising with the nuts doesn't really gain me anything.

If SB had enough to call m shove, I surely would have heard from him by now. He's not bashful. If I shove, he's going to fold. My only hope is to call the $160 and hope that he either calls behind to chop with a 9 or worse, or goes berserk and shoves himself.

Unfortunately, he wasn't biting and folded. It was still a really nice pot. Interestingly, SB went on for 10 minutes about how I'm a nit and he would have never put me on 9T of spades. That's a nice thing to hear.

#2

BB- LP fish. Recently didn't realize he had a boat with QQ on a 5T455 board and folded to a shove. $400

UTG- Nit. Very easy to read. Nothing special. $900

MP- Horrible LAG. Not putting in his whole stack with junk, but playing really bad from street to street (the SB from last hand).

Btn- Me. Done nothing really out of line all night. Those paying attention think me a nit (MP especially) although I have shown down QJs for an EP raise, and the 9Ts hand. Covers.

HAND

Preflop: UTG limps. MP limps. CO limps. I raise KK to $30. All three call.

$30 was the top of what people were calling at the time. Seemed reasonable.

Flop: TT8r ($121)
Checks to me. I elected to check.

Getting called by draws, eights, and PP's. Not really looking to get in 3 streets with the LAG who can make life difficult, and tens are in everyone's range. On the other hand, it's tough for them to have it and there's a lot of value to be had. I reasoned that I could still get a couple of streets from the other stuff later.


What ya'll think? I might post this one in the main forum. We'll see.

Overall, it was a good night. Not quite a 2 BI win, which about doubles last night's losses. It's nice to edge away from the BR cliff for 2/5. I'm starting to get comfortable in that game. I've really toned everything back and started playing ABC. Once I get better reads on the players I can start exploiting. It's been a while since I had to start over in that sense. It's taken some adjustment, but I really like how it's going. In my minute 2/5 sample, I'm making $71/hr so it's a pretty good start.

Tommy Angelo - Elements of Poker


Ed Miller - Card Player Article
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news...ng-your-sanity

Played a 1/2 home game last night and crushed it. I was in complete control of the table from start to finish. There's reallly not much to report on the session itself. I "got there" a lot so there really wasn't much strategy going on. I made one pretty bad bluff into two players and they both folded. I wouldn't try that in a tougher game because the play made no sense. It was just bad. Other than that, I had a cooler situation with a 60BB stack nit. I got all in with top two vs. a set. +$875 for the night which is pretty good for a 1/2 game in 4 hours.

I didn't get up when it first entered my mind last night. I didn't get up because the game was good, and I was playing really well. So, even though I played past my intended sop time, I think it was justified because I was assessing the situation and it was clearly a really good one.

So, to Tommy Angelo and Ed Miler I say


Photo courtesy of Pixar and my son's ridiculous amount of toys.

J/K. That's good advice to live by. The most important thing I believe is to be critically evaluating the situation on a consistent basis. The key is being honest and consistent throughout the session.

Other than that the leaks were pretty much under control. I have an unexpected chance to play tonight after work. I'll hit the casino around 11P. Tuesday night isn't ideal, but I'd like to see how it looks on a weekday. To infinity and beyond!

In for Groundhog Day. lol

nice. I'll take Groundhog Days like this past year every time. Will be posting graphs in about a week.

At least the Titanic went big or went home man

Also im a big proponent of continuing to play as long as you are on A game and the game is good. If all the conditions are great, im not sure why you would get up just to book a win.

Plus if effective stacks are very deep, it sets up for a lot of interesting / challenging / profitable spots... And personally thats why i play the game.

Although if you are playing for a living and not confident in your deepstack skills, i can understand mitigating your risk and just booking the win.