Didn't read all this over discussion - but just some food for thought:

GTO is playing your hand in the most +EV way at each decision point. PIO gives us a framework for what that means if villain is clairvoyant about your range and adjusts optimally. You can/should use this framework to guide you in-game, but seems like you can't see the forest for the trees. Sometimes you just gotta play your hand.

checks with AA also fine

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...eyond-1731104/

It is so difficuelt to win...NL5

OP 80k hands nl 200 next super hero

Page not found Vo2

Roll is at 2.3k, played well today!

Some hands from today and yesterday

H1: vamo!

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 136.22 BB
SB: 118.24 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 100 BB
Hero (MP): 126.1 BB
CO: 112.62 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J J

fold, Hero raises to 2.32 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 1.82 BB, BB raises to 10.5 BB, Hero calls 8.18 BB, fold

Flop: (23.32 BB, 2 players) K 5 Q
BB bets 7.32 BB, Hero calls 7.32 BB

Turn: (37.96 BB, 2 players) 7
BB checks, Hero bets 18.76 BB, BB calls 18.76 BB

River: (75.48 BB, 2 players) Q
BB checks, Hero bets 89.52 BB and is all-in, fold

Hero wins 71.7 BB


H2: vs reg, I think it's possible to find a fold OTT, don't think his sizing is that bluffy and I block his bluffs, vs competent regs I have to just call here, right? But I don't think a competent reg would use 50% OTR, meh.

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 125.62 BB
SB: 102.06 BB
BB: 107.26 BB
Hero (UTG): 100 BB
MP: 100 BB
CO: 352.64 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K Q

Hero raises to 2.32 BB, MP calls 2.32 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (6.14 BB, 2 players) 3 7 K
Hero checks, MP bets 3.86 BB, Hero calls 3.86 BB

Turn: (13.86 BB, 2 players) 4
Hero checks, MP bets 9.18 BB, Hero calls 9.18 BB

River: (32.22 BB, 2 players) 4
Hero checks, MP bets 15 BB, Hero calls 15 BB



H3: vs unknown, I almost folded because of the marketing sizing(was 19.50), but decided that the marketing sizing was no good! that's why I reproved 3 times in marketing before finally passing haha! vaaaaaaamo

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 100 BB
SB: 113.88 BB
BB: 122.04 BB
Hero (UTG): 133.92 BB
MP: 108.26 BB
CO: 121.7 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K T

Hero raises to 2.32 BB, fold, CO calls 2.32 BB, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (6.14 BB, 2 players) 7 T 3
Hero checks, CO bets 5 BB, Hero calls 5 BB

Turn: (16.14 BB, 2 players) 7
Hero checks, CO bets 13 BB, Hero calls 13 BB

River: (42.14 BB, 2 players) 5
Hero checks, CO bets 39 BB, Hero calls 39 BB



H4: vs reg, wp? I think at 50z those turn overbets are very underbluffed, but he looked to be competent, so I thought he had bluffs and was valuebetting worse too. OTR I think I have the worst bluffcatcher in the universe, what would you guys do with ATcc OTR? Good fold?

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 104.14 BB
SB: 150.74 BB
Hero (BB): 112.52 BB
UTG: 110.4 BB
MP: 168.08 BB
CO: 117.12 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J J

UTG raises to 2.3 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 1.3 BB

Flop: (5.1 BB, 2 players) T 5 6
Hero checks, UTG bets 3.64 BB, Hero calls 3.64 BB

Turn: (12.38 BB, 2 players) 4
Hero checks, UTG bets 16.46 BB, Hero calls 16.46 BB

River: (45.3 BB, 2 players) 8
Hero checks, UTG bets 13 BB, fold

UTG wins 43.04 BB


H5: I know that I should check the flop or the turn, but villain was the biggest whale in the universe, I've never seen someone call so fast, as soon as I bet he was already calling lol.

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 164.98 BB
SB: 184.82 BB
Hero (BB): 147.44 BB
UTG: 187.34 BB
MP: 418.4 BB
CO: 422.6 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J J

fold, MP raises to 3.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 14 BB, MP calls 10.5 BB

Flop: (28.5 BB, 2 players) J 7 3
Hero bets 14.08 BB, MP calls 14.08 BB

Turn: (56.66 BB, 2 players) T
Hero bets 27.98 BB, MP calls 27.98 BB

River: (112.62 BB, 2 players) K
Hero bets 91.38 BB and is all-in, MP calls 91.38 BB



H6: vs nit

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 98 BB
SB: 159.36 BB
BB: 74.52 BB
Hero (UTG): 107.6 BB
MP: 121.22 BB
CO: 29.76 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 5 5

Hero raises to 2.32 BB, fold, fold, BTN raises to 7.64 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 5.32 BB

Flop: (16.78 BB, 2 players) A 4 2
Hero checks, BTN bets 8 BB, Hero calls 8 BB

Turn: (32.78 BB, 2 players) J
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: (32.78 BB, 2 players) J
Hero bets 91.96 BB and is all-in, fold

Hero wins 31.14 BB


H7: vs reg, good sizing OTT/OTR? I'm not used to play deep stacked, I have 0 idea on which sizings to use

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 124.1 BB
SB: 61.48 BB
BB: 112 BB
UTG: 451.4 BB
MP: 170.76 BB
CO: 397.56 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q Q

UTG raises to 2.24 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 7 BB, fold, fold, UTG calls 4.76 BB

Flop: (15.5 BB, 2 players) J 4 J
UTG checks, Hero bets 3.82 BB, UTG calls 3.82 BB

Turn: (23.14 BB, 2 players) J
UTG checks, Hero bets 21.98 BB, UTG calls 21.98 BB

River: (67.1 BB, 2 players) 9
UTG checks, Hero bets 91.3 BB and is all-in, UTG calls 91.3 BB



H8: vs reg I didn't have much info on, such an annoying spot OTT, bad fold? I feel like his sizing is sooo nutted, like most people just jam turn with good draws. Also maybe these guys could have QQ/KK/AA at some % imo(specially QQ)

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 174.9 BB
SB: 114.96 BB
BB: 111.3 BB
UTG: 162.88 BB
MP: 124.7 BB
CO: 75.52 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J J

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 10 BB, fold, fold, UTG calls 7 BB

Flop: (21.5 BB, 2 players) 7 5 T
UTG checks, Hero bets 10.62 BB, UTG raises to 30 BB, Hero calls 19.38 BB

Turn: (81.5 BB, 2 players) 9
UTG bets 38.76 BB, fold

UTG wins 77.5 BB


H9: hmmmm, tempting to bet, but not today haha! Passive rapid!

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 1153.28 BB
SB: 100 BB
BB: 125.52 BB
UTG: 231.64 BB
Hero (MP): 113.3 BB
CO: 123.7 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A K

fold, Hero raises to 2.32 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 1.32 BB

Flop: (5.14 BB, 2 players) 5 9 8
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (5.14 BB, 2 players) Q
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (5.14 BB, 2 players) 7
BB checks, Hero checks



H10: vs whale, should I just jam turn? I hate having the Ad, I think AQ beats mostly AdXd hands in there and there are sooo many 2p going on, I'm very confused about this one. Trying to be a station vs these guys but I still end up folding in some spots.

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 213.76 BB
SB: 56.5 BB
BB: 111.42 BB
UTG: 184.08 BB
MP: 114.08 BB
Hero (CO): 110.38 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q A

fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.32 BB, fold, SB calls 1.82 BB, BB calls 1.32 BB

Flop: (6.96 BB, 3 players) J T 7
SB bets 3.32 BB, fold, Hero raises to 10.22 BB, SB calls 6.9 BB

Turn: (27.4 BB, 2 players) Q
SB bets 13.02 BB, fold

SB wins 26.04 BB

Edit*** (sounded like a jackass again) but turning JJ to massive bluff, flatting JJ pre, a lot of wierd c/c c/c c/c, and very 2012 sizeings makes me confused after all this gto/solver talk. Didnt understand any of the hands but good to hear ur doing well

Holy good God.

X/c with KQ is non standard, but I'm checking a ton OOP in srp, haven't studied that spot yet.

Turning JJ into a bluff is decent, villain is supposed to x his JhAh ott and barrel A5hh and I don't have AJo in my range in that spot vs him, so if I'm not bluffing JJ what am I bluffing with there? AJs/JTs make good turn bluffs but bad river bluffs, need some hearts combos for the river and that's the only Jh I have that isn't a flush. Also turn is very good for my range, specially if villain is very tight pre, since Kh is blocked by the board, if he doesn't have that many SCs/Axs in his 3-bet range he will struggle in having flushes on that texture, now if it were 458Thhsh, then it would be totally different.

On top of that, villain needs to check flushes/trips to protect his range, if he just goes for value with those and only x AK/AQ type of hands + give ups, it makes my bluff way better. And the tendency of population is just to play their hand, go for value and leave their x range unprotected.

Flatting JJ bb vs utg is std, I should flat half of my QQ and half of mt AKo. I will only deviate from that if villain is defending more vs 3bets than he should or if he is very wide pre. We don't have that much value to be made vs utg range and playing 3bet pots OOP sucks. Also getting 4bet sucks.

Could you give me some advice in that hand?

In first JJ hand why dont u just check down the hand? U even have a heart should be a super easy check back turn with alot of showdown value cant imagine ever turning it into a bluff its way to strong imo.

Flattting JJ + halv QQ/AK vs utg woot? Have never ever flatted any of those and my ranges are worked out from pio studying from my hs coach. So ur 3bet range here must be 2%?

Good god. You can not possibly be this bad.

Almost 7 years playing poker and you're making mistakes like this?

Not even close to being true.

Aq:

With overcard ott fish has incentive to bet kq aq so its pretty hard to rule out worse value, also his flop lead looks super capped and you probably mostly only lose to qj and beat whatever else he can have which is a bunch of fds some random gutshots possibly and i think 89 is super rare to see. You cant nit fold against non nutted lines when they can even have worse value

Didn't think he could be valuebetting KQ at the time. Yeah, it makes sense to call/jam

lel

that isnt quite right, GTO sometimes picks a sizing that is lower ev than another one for the sake of balance

wtf, no

It picks, even if our EV with the nuts would be higher by betting bigger, there's merit to putting some combos in a smaller sizing to protect it by limiting how thin villain could value-raise vs that sizing. The EV with that hand will be reduced but it will increase the EV of all other hands in the small sizing range vs an opponent who knows 100% of our strat.

I think people here are confusing optimal strategy vs game theory optimal strat:

Optimal strat: strat that will make the most EV vs villain (as an example, having 0 bluffs otr vs a big station is an optimal strat)
Game theory optimal strat: strat designed to make you unexploitable.

No. Gto will used mixed sizing or different lines only if they have the same ev.

PIO definitely does what Xeno said, but is it gto or not is another story.

There is no reason to ever make a decision that is -EV, just for the sake of balance. Every poker hand is 100% isolated from the other ones.

Imagine: you are on the river facing an all-in bet, and you know for a fact that call has higher EV than fold. Why would you ever fold? It makes no sense.

GTO would never do that. PIO maybe does it sometimes, as a way of increasing the accuracy of results.

GTO isn't "designed to make you unexploitable", it's designed to play every hand in it's range in the highest EV way possible vs someone using the same strategy.
If two GTO players played one vs another, they would both be playing Optimaly with every hand in every spot.

Also, I strongly believe that the whole concept of "protecting our range" has zero logic behind it, is just a bad simplification of how to play certain spots.
You don't check with a strong hand to "protect your range", you should do it because you believe it has the same or higher EV than betting. It's as simple as that.

the highest ev strategy is an exploitable one, the GTO strategy is not the highest EV

pretty sure PIO is GTO within its limitations, obv a true GTO strat would have a bazillion sizings

Exploitable against an optimal opponent??

just exploitable, you can see on PIO the ev of every action and its not true that the ev is the same when it mixes sizings, its usually fairly close but its different

PIO isn't Gto if that's the case.