6th for $42k, was super card dead, think played pretty well. Made good fold with JJ to 3bet and he ended up having aces so felt good about that. Probably do big grind again today

As I've said previously how many stables are still around from 5 years ago? If staking was this easy game where you give good players money and they make more money for you everybody would be doing it. Almost every single stable has gone broke. I think even Doug who was the best player in the world at the time and could give the best coaching out there said he went through biggest downswing of his life coaching. He started doing the $10-$10k challenge or whatever, do you think if he was making millions staking he would have stopped?

Staking is one of the hardest things to get right, almost every stable has gone bankrupt, check out the staking marketplace to see who is around these days. No bad mouth to BBZ who is great guy, player etc but he is now letting people join his community for $200/month and being involved with a small training site. Do you think if people were making millions from staking they would do this?

The fact is MTTs from almost every level run because of stables, sure sometimes there will be winning players but very very very often you will get peop;le playing games way too high. I personally have put people in games way too high where they are not winning and if I didn't the tournaments wouldn't have hit the guarantees and the guarantees would get lower and lower.

If there was no bitB for example big109 would probably be dead, once thats dead everything around it falls over and dies too.

I'm looking at the field in yesterday 2k that I came 6th in, I can see at least 50 guys that are staked out of the 400 that are not profitable in the field. If they didn't play it would have overlaid by over $200,000.

MTTs is the best format of poker right now, the most popular, but without stables it would be basically dead. Sure you can argue some long term ecology points but in reality if something dies today it very rarely becomes alive again tomorrow.

Stables should actually be powerful in good ways, when sites like Stars made their changes and the player pool wanted to do a strike it would have been very easy to organise. Every stable tells their players not to play for 1 week, almost every tournament would have been dead. Unfortunately too many people look out for themselves in these kind of ways.

"I don't think you're a bad guy Patrick, but its utterly staggering that party thinks that you are a good fit for their business. Conflict of interest is an enormous understatement."

What exactly do you think is a conflict of interest, every change I do for Party is helping everybody on a huge scale. For example adding 15 omaha tournaments, I don't even have a single guy who's allowed to play omaha tournaments. Nobody plays 2600s, barely anybody plays 530s. Almost every part of the site has been massively improved for recreationals, even in the huge tournaments like $1m guarantees etc, even for amateurs its virtually impossible to be losing a lot of the time because of the big overlays that have been very common.

The huge $5m $5k next month is huge tournament, potentially huge overlay, for the "biggest stable in the world" we will have roughly 0.5% of the total players.

Nice!

And Fedor will be able to make rent again I see, good for him.

Dont wanna sound like a b**** but most of the tournaments party has added in the last 12-18 months are really good for your stable. Compare the micro and the mid/highstakes tourney shedule on party with 2 years ago and then with other sites. You have a big increase of tourneys in the 20-100 range, below 5 it is basically dead.

Dont get me wrong, i would do the same if I had a stable, but somewhere in OP you said something like: "tell friends to play on party." When my recreational friends ( guys between 18-23, students, networth ~1-2k) ask me where they should play I say: Not on Stars and not on Party. Stars is too taff, as a rec you dont have a chance vs some 3rd world micro grinder who has played 1mio+ hands. Party offers 0% rake back for guys with less than 25$ rake. How should a guy with 50$ BR rake 25$ every week, when you have nearly no tournaments in the 1$ range? Maybe i am wrong, but when you play every 1$ tourney your site overs for a week straight, do you get any RB? I dont think so.

Personally I really like the site. I played more than 1 million hands this year on party and when you introduce mix games i am all yours. You say you did a lot for rec players, every of my rec friends would disagree with that.

I agree, but at the same time I don't blame Party for looking after the 20-100 range of tourneys first.

The bulk of players at that BI range are people who know at least a little bit about Poker. PP can grab those guys away from Stars because those players are already pissed at Stars and are looking for somewhere to move to. Pretty much all PP had to do to get people to move significant volume to their site from Stars was run tournaments with decent GTE and structure and job done, those grinders are now paying their rake to PP.

Getting the micro player pool from Stars tho is a whole different kettle of fish. Most are rec players who don't know much about Poker, but only know about Stars because it's the biggest site and they saw Cristiano Ronaldo on TV looking like a tiger. They don't know how much Stars is ****ing them now compared to what they used to because most probs don't even know what Rake or Rakeback is... Why would they move to PP when A/ they don't know it exists B/ they have a sweet account on Pokerstars C/ have no reason to play on PP and get used to a new client

For PP to take those people away and get their rake (which is only 10%max of the 20-100 grinders) they would need to spend way more on marketing for not as much gain.

I'm sure the micro stuff will come on PP, but from their point of view it would cost them a lot to bring players over who aren't going to rake much money.

to be perfectly honest, the goal of a site is to rake the most money, why would they give a flying eff about microstakes players who rake a rounding error? even in aggregate you need a horde of micro players an order of magnitude larger than midstakes players to make it worth it to attract their business. this is true across all industries, all of life. you spend no money, you have no voice

After last update looks Party increase a lot 1,00 - 5,50 mtts on schedule. All with decent gtd.

And can maximize the lobby, weeeee

Big day on the felt today, came 3rd in the Daily 530 for $11k, made absolutely insane fold but wte, and made day 2 of the $10k 5/18, huge day tomorrow, looking forward to it!

GL in the 10k tomorrow and gg in the $530!

Do you mind posting the HH of the fold you mentioned?

Would love to hear thoughts behind TJs limp/call vs linus? Was sort of randomly railing middle of the trny was kind of a ridic hand...

Nice runs gl tomorrow

This and this pls. Gl today!

7th for $55k. Not the result I wanted but think I wouldn't have changed much, one interesting hand

https://www.boomplayer.com/26070841_C6E0B8C330

I think I'm just going to get to the river so wide with so many hands and hes good enough to find his appropiate bluffs (fish2013) the way the combos are theres very few combos of value hands left (1 a4/ats f/e) was very important pot, i either go 1/10, 9/10 or stay 5/10.

Had lots of really interesting hands that I assume I made the correct decisions in, so can't complain.

Theres another 10k tomorrow but its PSKO, kind of annoying as I really just don't enjoy the format at all.

I just want to chime in here and defend pads briefly.

Sure, the addition of more mtts in the buy-in range that guys in the stable play is good for pads, but pads has guys playing from as low as like 3.3 all the way up to w/e (I guess 530 or something?) The fact is, any extra tourneys are going to be good for him.

What would you suggest he do instead? Simply never add any tourneys? Quit his position at Party? All of those seem vastly inferior to the system that's in place now.

Look at the changes that have been implemented by stars in the last year RE: Mtts and look at the changes that have been implemented by Party in the last year.

At Party:
1)More tourneys (Of every level)
2) Great power fests with amazing fields
3) A tiered satellite type system that allows lower stakes guys access to bigger tourneys
4) Software updates/improvements
5)Great live events
6) Good online qualifiers to live events
7) 8 max for 530+ (maybe 215+?)
8) A schedule that changes and is updated to try and meet the demands of players feedback.

(If you don't believe 8, tweet some suggestions to pads. If they're reasonable I know he'll listen.)

Stars:
1)Increased re-entries into biggers
2) Flatter payouts
3) Faster structures in the biggers
4) Purposely scheduling High roller series to conflict w/ WPT 5Diamond so that people skip WPT, and then go to Prague as a result
5) Withholding WCOOP/SCOOP (one or both, can't remember) schedule release until very last second
6)Taking almost no player feedback into consideration. Look at the WCOOP Sched. They had a fkn horse phase event where each phase was one of the pure games...
7) Movement towards PSKOs
8) Somehow the 10ks during High roller series are 9 max.
9) Look in the Pokerstares mtt feedback thread. Midstakes guys are furious because high stakes guys are getting an extra series and there's literally nothing for mid/small stakes guys until micromillions.
10) Movement towards more and more PSKOs



Now, I'm not saying that Party is doing everything perfectly or that Pads is responsible for every single positive change at the company w.r.t. mtts but surely we can all agree that Pads has contributed significantly and Party are taking overwhelmingly positive strides towards improving whereas stars are trying to bleed everyone for as much rake as possible. (Look at movement towards PSKOs, worse structures, flatter payouts, more re-entries).

In an ideal world would it be perfect if the guy improving party was only collecting his salary and not getting some secondary benefit? Personally it doesn't matter much to me but I guess that scenario would be better? However, in the real world Pads seems to be doing a way better job than anyone else that's tried to do the same thing for any of these companies and I'd much rather see sites moving in the direction Party has, with one of there reps getting some small secondary benefits rather than seeing the sites move the direction Stars has because they're being lead by the 3 blind mice.


As an aside: How much $ do you really think he's making on the addition of these mtts? It's a tiny amount of EV and then that gets chopped w/ the horse and then he's got to split it 3 way w/ the other invstors + there are expenses etc. We're really talking about him gaining an amount of EV that represents <<<1% of his total income in a year. The idea that there's a true conflict of interest there is sort of crazy. I don't know what party pays him but I suspect it's significantly more than the EV he could gain by maniplating the tourney sched in his favor.It would seem to be a pretty terrible gamble to risk getting fired from Party if he was found to be purposely manipulating things to help his stable succeed at the expense of party. Consider instead that what he's doing is what he thinks is best for the site and then he manages his horses accordingly which imo is perfectly fine.

Obvs he's my friend and I'm completely biased but I think if you look at the direction the sites are going you can see that the addition of pads to party is a net positive ainec.

<3

In terms of the schedule it actually went like this:

Start/Middle of year, massive focus on 215+ tournaments "pads doesn't understand ecology, he just wants to make more money for himself, if he understood he'd add more $11 and $55 tournaments"

Post powerfest, massive focus and increasing schedule on 11-55 tournaments "pads just pushing his own stable agenda"

My hourly from the whole thing would be better working at McDonalds, I am involved and want to improve things so that things don't get monopolised.

I don't think people realise how PokerStars would be if Party didn't make the improvements we made this year, they had full monopoly and could continue increasing rake and whatever else at rapid speed.

How annoyed are you at big ft's having to play tight/more abc due to icm, when you're somewhere in the middle of the pack/one of the shorties?

Don't let your throbbing ego get in the way of the facts, chief.

Almost. There is one recognizable stable still going strong, maybe 2? (BBZ, pocarr)

So the only recognizable stable left from the last 5 years is BBZ and you decide it's a good idea to throw shade on his business model?

I've known Jordan for many years now and I've only heard him say good things about you. The fact is BBZ makes you look like a child. If your head wasn't so far up your own ass, you'd have the humility to admit you could probably learn a few things from him. Then again, he doesn't ego post everyday so how could you?

he didn't even say anything bad or insulting about bbz though...

>200/month
-wrong

>implying joining forces with bfizz11/turbokings isn't massively +ev for both parties
-wrong

>implying people making millions don't push edges
-wrong

Pretty hilarious he uses BBZ, of all stables, to showcase his point.


Pads gonna Pads

Hey all,

I just wanted to make a quick post (it turned into a book...) as the BBZ guy referred to above. Defending Pads might seem a little off in light of the post above by one of the BBZ loyalists but here goes anyway...

First, I dont want to derail this thread at all and I want to speak specifically to someone challenging Pads' integrity. I don't know Pads well and we have never met or done business together. I am not his BFF or his horse or his girlfriend so I'm not coming into this thread trying to protect him... If someone associated with BBZ wins a tournament that is agruably not good for Pads because someone from BitB did not win it and vice versa. I think this dynamic is not one where Pads should be looking out for my best interest at all.. But probably to the surprise of someone screaming conflict of interest that is exactly what he has done.

On multiple occasions Pads has contacted me of his own accord to inform me that he thinks I'm making a mistake somewhere with respect to my placement of a high stakes player or the integrity of someone I'm working with. These are scenarios where he genuinely believed I was losing money or making a mistake and similarly were scenarios he probably felt were advantageous for him and his team. He had nothing to gain by sharing his opinion and the decision to provide me with that feedback was always going to have some marginal cost associated with it if he was right...

I obviously don't make decisions based on one source of feedback alone but the feedback has been nonetheless valuable. This guy in my opinion prioritizes his integrity and actually cares about the outcomes for other parties involved even to his own detriment. He's not building harmful systems just so he can maximize his expectation and I pretty strongly object to that accusation against his character even though I don't know the guy... I'm sure that like all of us someone could point at something and scream foul but that isn't really the point. On balance I think someone whose behaved as he has with me is exactly the type of person you want in a situation where there may *potentially* be some sort of conflict of interest. I also don't think the average player who doesn't run a stable can really appreciate the amount of data a team like BitB (Pads) or BBZ has about the games we all play and love and how valuable that informed perspective might be to a poker site competing in a business dominated by network effects... (Pokerstars is not an easy competitor to take on...) That data makes his perspective more informed than a lot of the anecdotal experiences other candidates may have and I think Party has done a tremendous job hiring him.

Party poker has undoubtedly made impressive strides since Pads has joined their team & I think we should all hope he stays on and continues to contribute in whatever way he can. Pads has contacted me directly requesting I provide feedback to help in the endeavour and to date I have provided exactly none. I've let them just do their thing and my team will deal with what comes out. I'm including this bit of information because these aren't really the types of edges stables (Highly organized teams of professional poker players) are looking to exploit. BBZ has no interest as a team in manipulating the schedule to the detriment of the ecosystem and I think Pads can be expected to behave similarly. He wants to do what's best for poker as a whole and I want to focus on what I'm good at which is beating NLHE.

I enjoy the game and the challenge of figuring out how best to actually play it and my team will source its edges in that fashion. All signs point to Pads behaving the same way and being someone you can trust as far as I can tell... If a conflict exists I think you can expect him to manage it ethically. So far on balance I think the poker community should probably approve more of the direction Party Poker has gone than the direction Pokerstars has gone.

In closing, this guy didn't want to profit from my staking compromised players and him beating on me from that mistake... That behaviour seems consistent with someone you can trust to do the right thing if his bottom line and the good of the community conflict in some way (they probably won't). He is doing the community as a whole a service by working with Party Poker and helping to establish a credible threat to Pokerstars. He seems like a pretty reasonable and good guy with some clever marketing tactics that occasionally step on toes (that's ok).

Let's see who thinks about the game in a more organized and structured fashion and let the chips fall where they may...

GL to all!

Thanks Jordan, appreciate that a lot <3

My point was more, people believe poker staking is easy, they probably think I made 7 figures from it or something but its really not the case.

I definitely do not make $1m from it and its very very unlikely anybody else does either. Sure Pocarr/BBZ are still around but what the hundreds that failed?

Sure people have made money for me, but what about the dozens of people I've dropped in 5 figure makeup.

Think of it this way:

I have a guy who wins $100k in 12 months

In the next year he goes on downswing, I spend a lot of time trying to fix it, rectify it but in the end drop him for $30k (very common situation)

With this guy I have:

1- Initially profited $50k
2- Spent 24 months of coaching at around $1k/month cost
3- Spent roughly 2 hours/month personally on (roughly $5k cost over the 2 years)
4- Dropped 30k worth of makeup.

So the horse who it looks won 70k for me and I got 75k, I actually LOST $9K.

People only see the rosy side of staking, but like I have said so many times, its so so so ****ing hard. Poker is literally easiest thing in the world compared to staking. If it is easy thing there would be dozens and dozens of guys making huge huge money through it, but I guarantee theres not.

I am in my "peak" years, I can be learning something very big right now, studying, getting an internship somewhere really cool, focusing on poker, or whatever else but I choose to do it on staking, its a cool thing which hits a lot of my interest points. I love when there is a new staking team, very often they will make heaps of mistakes and players in my games will be big losers and players in my horses games will be big losers who I'll be making money from, remember every player (including myself, I think I'm 3rd best player in every SHR ffs) thinks they are way better than they are, it is NOT hard to have a pretty sharkscope graph and it IS hard to be able to analyse the data properly, thus many new stakers (including still currently myself) get game selection very, very wrong.

For the guys who I know try as hard as me like BBZ/Rob at Pocarr etc I treat it in a way where they are basically the same as me. If they had the info I had then I would want them to tell me if it was opposite. I have never met BBZ before but I really think all the staking teams should work together (sure I wrote this just few days ago) there is such a big divide between them because of the huge competition which makes it difficult for people to accept. But staking companies individually are keeping tournaments alive and staking companies collectively could help the industry more than anybody else. They could force almost every negative change away from every site if they wanted to do it.

Its also a little bit like poker, I give away so much free strategy to competition, other hs regs, speak about hands etc rather than just keep it to myself, that was always the case on 2p2 back in the day, sharing info, it is fun, cool, nice to have people who are very similar to you etc, with staking I see it really similar. There are few big players

Demetri - Get on exceptionally well with, play for same football team, would see myself doing business with him in the future
Rob - Will always get on with him really well and have great relationship
BBZ - Never met before but have huge respect for

I really like speaking to all of them, would love to all sit together at dinner in Vegas etc, all I was trying to say is that staking is so bloody tough and all of those ^ would definitely agree and many, many others who have lost hundreds of thousands if not millions would tell you exactly the same thing.

I genuinely make more money because of staking companies (not including my own obv) than I would if there was none around. In fact I most likely wouldnt be playing poker anymore if there wasn't such thing as staking, it would be basically dead.

Quote from Moorman interview:

"I don’t regret staking, but I have no interest in ever doing it again"

I love it! Yesterday I was 9/9 and told the guys who were sweating "goal is to come 7th, lets go, lets cheat final destination" I got 7th and most people would be really pissed to lose QQ V A8 to bust or to not ladder twice (TTv99, QJvQT) for $30k, but if you use your mindset going into final tables of where you should finish when you're short stacked, when you bust you'll never be tilted.

You rated yourself 3rd, is it Holz and Sontheimer you rate as the best?

This right here is the most disturbing part of staking and imo, the biggest reason why it is so hard to win at staking in poker. It makes me laugh when I see horses acting entitled, like they aren't getting enough and deserve more. I can't think of an industry out there besides being staked in poker (or being staked for anything for that matter) where a person can make money over a period of time while actually losing money over the duration. E.g. your example, only let's say the horse started on a $50k upswing, profit split and got $25k out of it, and then went on a $60k downswing and got dropped from stake. The horse is +$25k while having actually lost $10k and the backer is -$35k.

Great post - wish more Poker 'feuds' would be shot down quickly like this.