First instinct is to bet 250 otr, your hand has value though he will show up with a better 8 sometimes.

I doubt he is slowplaying boats. What do you think his range looks like for calling flop and turn?

During the hand I had no idea as to what he can call me with and what he can bluff with/vbet if i c/c'd. Was hoping to catch the other 2 guys and not him cuz he was the better of the bunch

Edit: i guess he has some straight draws like 45s.. thats not that many though

I think some boats/better trips are in his range actually, even though he tends to be overly aggro.

He could have slow played the flop hoping to trap the fish in position.

Also my range there looks a lot like a big overpair to these people

U basically do have a big overpair bc you have the worst possible 8 (except 1 combo of 68s and i guess 58s) and V's AA/KK should have 3bet pre

In game i bet tiny to get a crying call from 99/JJ but if u think about it we dont have 50pct equity to thin value bet bc yes all boats are in his range including TT which got there and he would have to be pretty bad to call with 99 or even JJ bc like i said we are repping hard and basically do have a big overpair.

Plus the prob w bet tiny is if he shoves on u you dont know if u induced a bluff from this LAG or if he actually has it or if he is jamming with 58s/68s/AA and you have to sigh call and he will always have it and you will insta-range it in pokercruncher iphone app and justify a terrible river call that could have been avoided if u didnt thin value bet just bc "zomg i hav trips"

C/c not great for reasons OP already described. Hes got no real bluffs besides 45s altho we did bet small enough on flop and turn to potentially get calls from A4ss/A5ss... But all these hands should raise turn some % of the time since 8 hits his range harder than us.

C/f river tho i would never in game bc im terrible

Meh, I want to check flop, also probably check turn as played. I think both are close.

Value betting river is too thin.

There are a bunch of different scenarios we can get into checking river but I think we're generally going to C/f. We need to parlay the fact that a) there aren't many combos of bluffs villain(s) get to the river with and b) bluffing frequency is extremely low given most are smart enough to realize bluffing 3 people off a high absolute value hand in a multi-way bloated pot otr in LLSNL is suicide.

preflop tho

LOL isoraise weeeeeeee

Pre not standard and not exactly iso at this table as described but its good

Think it's fine as played and I would check River and allow him to maybe own himself. Too thin to bet yourself because you don't have a good kicker (although he still has 86s and 85s). He may occasionally bluff a straight draw or perhaps try to bluff you off a better pair who knows.

Okay what do you guys call it when you are raising over limpers cuz it's not exactly an "open" nor a "raise" (cuz there's no "bet")

Nit

I believe it is called a raise because the posting of blinds is considered a bet

I think he's referring to the fact that you've labeled 7 of the players as some form of "atc" yet still call your raise an "iso raise" like you're not expecting 5 callers.

I would be jealous of this game, but this kind of nofoldemholdem is common where I play too

I wonder what your raise accomplishes since it isn't for value or to thin the field. Initiative *might* be valuable, plus you create a gap between your perceived and actual range, watcha think?

It accomplishes a lot of things.

1). I'm comfortable playing out of position on this table, and with the stacks being deeper, I'm not afraid of opening a "speculative" hand. On a deeper loose-passive (read: NOT aggro) fishy table, you should not rely on the strategy playing small ball until you hit, then try to bloat up the pot after. Your goal should be trying to get the fish's stack in asap.

2). No one was being super aggro 3 betting preflop (possibly with the exception of V) and I wasn't at high risk of being squeezed out pre. So if this and 1) weren't true, and there were lots of short stacks ready to ship it in pre behind me, my strategy would change (and I would either limp-call or fold pre).

3) A reason that not many people think about is: sometimes opening yourself gets you to the flop cheaper. Let's say I limped this hand instead. Few more limps then someone goes 40-45 with their kqo hand, whereas they would just flat 25 if that was the price (i'm sure you guys know the kind of the passive table i'm talking about here). Now i have to call 45 AND my range is capped.

4) It's part of my opening range. With my image even most of the fishy players will immediately put me on aces or kings when I put money in pre and post. I can cover almost every single board texture with a balanced preflop range. I can rep it on AKx and fold out their better hands; and I will have a great continuing hand on 679 bdfd, whereas it gets tricky if I only had QQ+ there. It makes me harder to play against, and easier to get value from villains who make mistakes about my range.

5) sometimes people are wrong when they label certain hands as trash. They tend to think only hands like big pairs and big Axs are value hands. More factors than absolute (or hot/cold) equity goes into the value of your hand - or we'd simply only be playing AK+ all day long! Many hands play well multiway, and I'm fine opening them with, but may seem unorthodox in the llsnl community. (However it still has to make sense given your position/table!!) Again, suited connectors plays extremely well post-flop because you often have good continuing equity.

6) Another mistake people often make is not thinking in terms of pot odds. You do not need to win most of your pots to be a big winner. People often get in the mentality that they should be doing anything to win that one pot, even when the most +ev move may be folding. It's fine if I brick/lose this hand this time because I'm confident that opening this hand on this table in the long run will show a profit. Another example is - it's fine to open 22 utg even if you are getting 7 callers - because you just created your own direct odds to set mine.

How sticky are most of the Villains on the table versus post flop barrels? Are they ATC/ATSC super flopaholics pre flop and then fit or fold postflop? Or are they also very peel happy versus post flop barrels?

They've mostly been fit/folding. But it's hard to say because if you take a super wide range, most times they are going to have at best one over card with almost zero backdoors. I wouldn't know how they would play second/bottom pair based on the sample size. No one seemed to be hero calling as much as preflop bingo though.

I also have super good image at this point. I only played one hand so far where I stacked someone aiott with queens then didn't really play any hands until this one. Pretty sure they see me as a nitty.

#3 is so underrated in games with weak players. In general, being the aggressor allows you to pick what size of a pot you want to play. If you look hard, you can even find postflop spots where marginal value hands in position can be raised or bet on the turn for value, information, and pot control, with the intent to check behind on the river unimproved without sacrificing ev.

Check/call. In general good lags don't like trying to make people who know they are good lags fold overpairs in bloated pots unless they can rep the a million nuts and few if any bluffs while hammering on a weak range. This is one of those spots imo. This is just such a sweet float spot for him because you should have an overpair and he should have an 8. If he thinks you are tight, he can can call last to act with a4, 45, 46, 56, 44+, bdfd, and just blast away on the river when most 2/5 players are thinking 'well, the pot went 50 ways pre, someone's gotta have top pair which turned into trips. I'll fold my overpair because it's impossible for him to bluff here'.

If he has a boat or better 8, GG sir.

How much do you actually respect Villain for being a good player? Do you have enough data on him to conclude that he is indeed a good player?

What does he think of you?

I usually don't like to give people credit for actually being good at poker until they have proven it to me (or an actually good poker friend of mine tells me that Villain REALLY is good).

If the conclusion is that Villain is MAYBE a good LAG, then I am going to value bet river. If he is REALLY a good LAG, then check is perhaps better.

Not being cocky but i don't think he's good at all. He's someone who's prone to different moods/playing styles depending on whether he's losing/winning. He prob thinks I'm generally nitty but capable of moves due to knowing i play 5/T.

The annoying part is that I had to bet the turn here with so many people in the pot (because my hand is too strong to let it be checked around, but not strong enough to check raise and gii), and by betting the paired turn, it looks super strong. Usually in a situation like that I feel like someone who was one of the many limpers isnt suddenly going to try and bluff me. I feel like if he had a missed draw he's just going to give up all rivers?

It seems like most of you guys think we should check call here - do you often see someone from a multiway pot bluff after they played passively in the earlier streets?

I think he would def have squeezed JJ+ preflop, maaaybe TT. So what's left of his range that can call a bet on the river? Not much.

I think I'm not winning or losing much money here, but what's interesting is ranging the villain. Remember he closed action on the turn after everyone else folded!

I misread the river earlier and thought we were 4way. This seems really close, but I'm still leaning towards c/f

This is how I'm looking at his range:
Final board:823 8 T

Value:
7 boat combos (22,33,T8hh)
5 trip combos (98,J8,Q8,K8,A8)hh

Bluff/worse value:
4 combos of 45s
1 combo of 86hh

This can obviously be tweaked in different ways, but assuming all combos have equal weight, we have ~30% equity. If he shoves 600 into 660 we need 32%.

If he chooses a smaller sizing, or has different sizing for different parts of his range, it makes it more confusing i.e. he may go big/more polar with boats and 45s, smaller with trips. It's also possible he doesn't bluff in this spot at all, or with a really low frequency.

I think this is reasonable but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Yeah, I think that looks reasonable. I almost think he has a bunch of 45o combos too because he haz teh button and there r a bunch of fish in the pot already..

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I think I'm just unlikely to get value from worse on the river, so I think check call is the best option. Even though he's unlikely to bluff, it certainly has higher ev than betting. Thank you for all your feedback.

Results: i did bet 250 as PA suggested. He folded. Fwiw I would have folded to a shove even if it was only 3-400 more.

I bet because during the hand I didn't think he would bluff and didn't want it to be checked back, but I should have made the higher ev play and c/c.

Jam river

Op isn't as good at poker as she thinks she is