Kind of perplexes me how so many online pros are making so little (i.e. ~35k) when that is so very easily attainable playing LLSNL.

Yah I don't think many pros make much either. Something like 25-35k is probably average. Obviously the best make much more tho

40 hours of poker is way harder than 40 hours of a regular job. Not as much with live poker but with online. But yes if you aren't putting in 40+ hours a week between grinding and studying/going over hands than you are being lazy.

I don't have too much live experience and I may be wrong but it seems to me that theres a ton of over-exaggeration/small sample EV estimations that come from the live community. Like in order to avg just $50/hour at 5/10 you need a wr of 20-25bb/100, is that even possible? And I've heard people say that the best players at 5/10 are winning like $100/hour, even if youre super deep how on earth can you achieve a 40bb/100+ edge?

Didn't know that studying/going over hands counted as hours lol

It's pretty easy to burnout mentally with poker like both live and online.

With a full-time job i mean i'd have to speculate and assume you would burnout less depending on the job you work because you are always socializing and talking to/meeting new people getting fresh air always something new etc.

I hate how people don't give poker enough credit for how hard it is which makes me sad, but im def going to be grateful hopefully when i get a job instead of playing poker full-time lol

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. Sure when you have a day job you have more accountability to rock up - in that you'll get fired if you don't - but if you're a pro with any amount of discipline, grinding 40 hours a week shouldn't be too hard. A lot of pros seem not to treat it as a job though and try to do the minimum they can get away with. Obv that's not how I look at it. Grinding 40 hours of poker vs 40 hours of labour work @ a factory is soooo much easier if you ask me, guess it just depends on what your 9-5 is.

Before I got into live poker, I thought the same - that it would be impossible. But the fact is that it should be fairly easy for a very good 5/10 pro to get at least $50 an hour. You have some guys doing that at 2/5 with larger cap buyins over big samples.

I'll agree though that there's probably plenty of over-exaggeration re live samples and winrates.

Opposite was true for me. At my old job I only interacted with brain dead truck drivers and the rest of the time was just managers/my boss barking commands at me. In poker, especially in the homegame scene, it's a super awesome social environment. Dead ass topless waitress serving us espresso martinis in a penthouse apartment with 3-4 very close friends talking **** while on the clock - this was my Friday grind for a good while!

Hell I put in 15-25 hours a week playing online with well over a $50 hour EV and I have a 40 hour a week job.

How can you guys playing only 20 hours a week and only making $25k a year consider yourself a professional? Jeez that’s barely above poverty level in the US. Sounds like nothing more than some young kid that hasn’t decided what he wants to do with his life and has a nice hobby.

Not to mention it’s clearly a fact amongst countless live pros (as well as my own experience over 1000’s of hours) that winrates in the live arena at 2/5 can top $50/hour and even higher depending on how deep/loose the games play. Why would any of these guys continue to play online making $25k a year when you can do that playing live with less variance and half the hours? As I said seems like a hobby to me...

If you consider yourself a pro and grind anything above 100NL and make 25K a year you need to quit poker and go get a job, it's not for you. If you grind 20 hours a week you may be a "pro" by definition of your income coming from poker, but you're not a pro in poker nor would you be considered a pro in any other facet of work, you're a part time worker.

Like the poster above, I work 40+ hours a week and grind another 30-40. I don't consider myself a pro by any means and I'm no where near the best in my games, but I cleared well over that grinding 100-400NL this year and the previous 2 years without even including RB and bonuses.

Nothing wrong with playing 20 hours a week and clearing 25K by any means, that's decent money, but that's something you do while you work another job, have very little expenses, or live in a third world country.

Have you ever played a live 5/10 game? It's about as hard as 25NL online, if it's even that hard. Hell, 25NL on WPN is MUCH harder on average than the majority of 5/10 games I've played live this year.

It's impossible to make the comparison. Also 20-25bb/100 is flat out impossible at 25nl.

Agreed it shouldn't be hard for live pros. I'm strictly speaking about online. There are a lot of aspects of it that take a toll on your body and generally get worse and worse the longer you do it. 40 hours of multitabling online means 40 hours of constant clicking and brain stimulation. But you're right it definitely depends on what normal job we are talking about. I was assuming your generic office 9-5 job. If we are talking about manual labor jobs than for sure poker is way easier on your body overall obviously.

I agree it's generally pretty crazy for someone to be content grinding poker making 25k/yr though. The obvious exceptions are people in countries where 25k/yr is bordering on doctor money and people who have no better options for whatever reason. If you are in the US and grinding out 25k/yr playing poker as your full time profession than you are not doing your future self any favors.

Yah and also I think there's a pretty big difference between cash and MTT online pros. Like if you're playing Zoom, you can take plenty of breaks and should realistically be able to put 8 hours in a day, even if that means playing during bad hours. MTT grinders I take my hat off to... They're basically forced to play 12 hour sessions with no breaks - that's good and bad in that 40 hour weeks should be EZ but it would be a horrible grind on your body imo.

Of course studying and going over hands counts as working hours if you are a professional poker player. Spending time on these things effectively increases your playing hourly and helps give you longevity as games get harder and harder. Same as spending time learning a new skill or new information to help you advance in a more normal career.

The people who don't give credit for poker being a tough profession are not people who have experience and can accurately assess the situation. It's not surprising that from the outside most people would look at it and think that playing a game for a living is fun and easy all the time. But it's just ignorance from a lack of familiarity.

Def agree. Idk how big field mtt pros do it. I would not be able to be a full time mtt grinder if that was the only game type available. Super long days with no flexibility and ridiculous variance that will weigh on your body and mind. Not a fun way to live and especially not so if you don't have an extremely healthy liferoll/bankroll to ride that variance train.

I used to work 2 ****ty jobs (one literally involved human feces) 7 days a week for nearly a year, with commuting I worked about 65 hours a week, putting in hours at poker seems like a harder task tbh since theres no one there to fire you lol

I currently do live in a 3rd world country, if I lived back home I'd be forced to grind more

this

also not to make excuses but I have pretty bad adhd so putting in hours for me is harder than for the average grinder, but I'd still honestly rather grind poker for 25k/year than get a real job, I'm naturally lazy and the worst feeling in the world is having to wake up before you feel like it imo

Unless you live in England

25-35k isok money in a lot of places, not discriminating against all the other places in the world that have poker pros.

IMO you can't compare poker with a standard, real job. Nobody has standard, real jobs. My job was trying to hire people at $0.85 above minimum wage in an area with a median household income well over $100k, isolated from most of my colleagues, with no room for advancement in a contracting company. And I was making about 67% of my poker hourly.

I'm in the middle of a nearly 2 month downswing and I would still take this over my old job. And the anti-social aspect? Talk at the table! Make jokes, make friends. Don't put your beats on, hoodie up, sunglasses on, and then wonder why you're so miserable.

this, people looking at the dollar figure of someones EV then criticizing don't realise how many cool places there are out there in '3rd world' countries where you can be balling out of control with 25k/year or countries where its at least an average income, not everyone lives in the west in fact I think most online poker pros spend at least 6 months outside their home country each year. I may be biased in that opinion but I think its right

yea well for online players its even worse lol, live poker is at least 5x more social just by nature

Pots for sale. Or brokenstars. How many 5/10 games go on a Saturday night on ignition?

Don't know because they don't show lobby anymore

Lol, exactly.

Yeah you can’t know but it’s not hard to tell when traffic is low. That being said I haven’t had any issues finding games at 1knl really ever. Especially this time of year. Then again I don’t mind starting games either. It can take some time to get 4 tables at non peak times.

If I don’t feel like starting games and in a hurry I’ll mix stakes with 500nl to get 4 tables obviously.

Think a) everyone overestimates how easy it is, and b) live is not a career for almost anyone i've ever spoken to. it's not sustainable, unhealthy, depressing hours/ environment, etc etc