Yup it’s anonymous. I think these are good points re: sb flat. Going by that logic, could you argue the fish’s river “value” betting or clicking range is much wider than only full houses? Ie flushes, straights, TPGK that doesn’t want to check and face a bet?

I've answered it before. Stop trying to throw scissors at 33.3% frequency when villains are throwing rock at 95%.

Yes it is a fairly trivial fold. I'd strongly consider folding Tx tbh. What i dont think you grasp (not being a d*ck here, I just really dont think it is ever going to get through) is that I can tell both you as hero to underbluff this spot and villain to overfold this spot and both would be the correct answer for the same reason.

I like this from a theoretical standpoint. Not many people have the balls to pull this sort of bluff off...at least not in live poker for sizable amounts of money.

As for 2NL, no clue..might villain think a good portion of your range consists of flushes because lol microstakes?

Its $200NL zone, thats just the way the hand converter is showing it.

The rest of your assumptions about the pool are unchanged though.

Imo there are a lot more loose passive recreational players that just overbet w/nuts than spewy recreational players that overbet turn w/ bluffs or semi bluffs into 2 players. But yes, sometimes you will run into a spewy player in which case calling is the way better option.

Then why post to begin with? Yes I grasp why you can underbluff and overfold the same spot. That's not my point. You think folding < Tx is trivial in his spot as do I. I'd argue a lot of people at 200NL that have any ability to hand read think the same. Idk why you keep writing "stop throwing scissors at 33%", when that was never my goal. You continue to assume it is without actually reading what I write. The assumption "he is throwing rock 95%" AKA "your avg. player won't fold anywhere close to enough" is the point of contention in the hand. Why not constructively tell me that and why you think so instead of being a tool about it? It's very possible my assumptions are wrong.

I get your schtick is to make comparisons and analogies that are completely exaggerated, but really?

Fair

I posted in this thread bc I think you are one of the few good players left that posts on this forum.

If I come off as a tool it’s bc I explain things bluntly without a filter.

I can’t give you any in depth analysis on ranges and frequencies in spots like this bc I avoid them and as soon as you start avoiding them too you will start beating the stake for 5-7bbs/100

If you put all of the energy that you put into overanalzying weird spots like this and instead put it into gen pop tendencies at 200 zone and finding basic exploits you’d be much better served.

Get rid of rio. Get rid of mdf thinking. Go into hem. Look at what people have when they 4bet. Fold more. Profit.

This is what I'm currently doing to narrow down 3bet ranges, 3bet call ranges, and 4bet ranges to make exploitative adjustments. It's pretty eye opening tbh.

A lot of this is true. I think you have a misconception about the way I approach hands. I'm all for the most practical way possible. Trying to call down rivers at mdf is a fool's errand. Understanding the concept and how it's applicable is valuable.

Thought this hand would be interesting for the thread. In terms of an area to greatly improve w/r, yeah not too relevant.

Analyzing a database is something I need to learn better. As of now I'm kinda just out there in the woods chopping down trees. I enjoy doing it and find it interesting but my problem is the time I have for poker is mostly allocated toward playing. Having a bigger sample would also be helpful.

One thing I do look at is mucked hole cards in big pots post session. Lots of valuable information there.

Are you also playing 200z?

Na just 50z for now. Online bankroll is low atm.

Results- he folded the nf A5dd

I've enjoyed reading your last few posts Andes.

Bluffing is certainly good and required in most of the spots you shared. You're getting the hang of which textures and positions you can stuff bluffs with, it's simply a matter of choosing the right combinations/frequencies.

There are certain textures/position that are better to basically never bluff, some to underbluff, and others to overbluff. It's extremely important to keep that in mind when you're going for multistreet bluffs. Myself and what appears others itt simply think you're overzealous and end up bluffing with too many combinations in the wrong spots (costing yourself money).

Now all of the above is great if you're an intellectual poker nerd. But you should really be questioning if the game is worth it if you need to be pushing so many close spots (and you do lol). It is next to impossible to ride that fine line and consistently be correct without knowing EXACTLY what you're doing.

Are you in it more for the money than the game itself? I recently played pl bigO/8 with players playing **** like 377KTss. I mean I'm saying playing off a simple hand chart is going to print money in a game like that. Many "regs" wouldn't even know the right combos for thin value bets and semi bluffs let alone bluffing combinations.

Appreciate the positivity. Fps is real and I can be guilty of it. There's something to be said about backing off from a bluffing a spot that you're unsure about. From a mental game standpoint you have a finite amount resources in a given session. When you run a big bluff and lose, it depletes these resources in some fashion even if it's just minor agitation. Everyone has a breaking point where losing a certain amount will start to cloud judgement.

I'm in it for both reasons. It's not all about money. I love the game, competition, challenge. It's an addiction in some way at the very least, probably because I escape reality while I'm playing. It's something i'm always thinking about and looking forward to.

If I played for a living I think it would be valuable to learn other games but it doesn't make sense for my situation. Plo is the only other game I have access to live and there are a bunch or reasons I don't want to play it. The main ones are variance, hands/hour, learning curve, mental health. In benabadbeat's thread he posted a 500z graph with 500k hands and I think it was a >5bb/100 wr. 200k+ of those hands were breakeven. NL variance is stupid enough

NL is probably the best game for anyone on a short roll or just looking for small, consistent wins. However, at 5/T+ I think edges are much smaller in typical 9 handed live games than what most people believe. I'm not saying a person can't win, I'm just saying at that bankroll level there are better options unless you're an expert.

I agree that grinding live plo is pretty stupid/ borderline degen. But taking a shot is fine too. If it sticks great and if it doesn't just cut your losses. The issue with PLO isn't necessarily the variance (at least not half of it). The much bigger issue imo is that it's 9 handed and hi only. It turns the game into a very slow, nut peddling game no matter how good you think you are. It's just impossible to open up and play lots of hands in a format like that. In other words you're handcuffed to the number and quality of hands you can profitably play, which makes variance a ***** (or your best friend lol).

If your area spreads 5/T+ NL and PLO at the same time, its close to a lock that there are other games going in your area. You just have to look. They aren't typically advertised as well/ off in the corner but they're there, trust me. Not relying on poker income gives you an insane advantage to try to new games over typical pros who are locked into their particular stake/ can't afford to take risks at games they aren't familiar with.

I was thinking about this too. I have a few friends who claim they make $50/hour at 2/5 and I just don't see how it is possible over the long run. Considering 9 handed, rake, tips, 20-25 hands per hour.

I feel like they are above EV over their careers which is certainly possible over the course of 5-7 years.

Weird one, annoying turn spot. Thoughts?

PokerStars - $2 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 77.03 BB
CO: 43.48 BB
BTN: 106.33 BB
SB: 242.95 BB
Hero (BB): 186.17 BB
UTG: 54.93 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 3 K

fold, MP raises to 2.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 1.5 BB

Flop: (5.5 BB, 2 players) 3 3 9
Hero checks, MP bets 3.13 BB, Hero raises to 13.25 BB, MP calls 10.13 BB

Turn: (32 BB, 2 players) T
Hero checks, MP bets 22.63 BB, Hero calls 22.63 BB

River: (77.25 BB, 2 players) 9
Hero bets 147.79 BB and is all-in

Flop c/r sizing is too big for overall c/r range. It's a high frequency cbet spot so our c/r sizing wants to target whiffs. Small c/r sizing also makes sense when we are protection/thin value raising hands like TT or A9s.

On the turn this is obv a good card for your range and you're ahead more often than not so I think solver would want 55% PSB, although exploitatively it's prob better to just check since most V's will check with strong pairs and bet with flushes.

Don't like river sizing because we don't have many bluffs and V could still have 9x (turning 98s/97s into a bluff for example) or TT. I think a better sizing is around 65% PSB.

River shove is half pot, 38bbs

Ah my bad. It's obv fine then.

Forgot about pre. Think it's marginal at best and possibly a leak if you're not good OOP (almost everyone). Should prob use Pio and run a script on flop subsets to figure out the worst hands that are +EV to defend pre.

I would assume pio would defend nearly always but that doesnt mean we should be

results- my river shove gets value from nothing vs this guy, folded A8hh

re: preflop- yeah this one is borderline for me. I'd fold to a 3x or vs utg 2.5x . In my mind making a marginally -ev call pre is the same mistake as passing one up that's marginally +ev. No one is going to be able to figure out this cutoff point perfectly for his own skill level. What I can do is continuously filter my db over decent samples for just the bottom hands in my bb calling range to see how far off I am from -100bb/100 and adjust accordingly. If I'm getting crushed then i'm prob too loose or leaking a ton postflop, if I'm crushing then I'm prob too tight.

Similar spot, this time no river bailout

PokerStars - $2 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 43.95 BB
SB: 103 BB
Hero (BB): 273.51 BB
UTG: 50 BB
MP: 60.1 BB
CO: 221.66 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9 J

fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.5 BB, 2 players) J 9 4
Hero checks, CO bets 2.2 BB, Hero raises to 8.4 BB, CO calls 6.2 BB

Turn: (23.3 BB, 2 players) 5
Hero checks, CO bets 20.65 BB, Hero calls 20.65 BB

River: (64.6 BB, 2 players) 2
Hero checks, CO bets 52.5 BB

For sure. It’s just nice to know what kind of equity realization Pio can get with certain hands to use as a reference point.