lol please explain. I'd like to see this one lol...

capped range, out of position VS uncapped range, in position.

Stack depth 200bbs.
blinds invested: 3.5

That's really all you need to know to make the right decision.

If the game you're in isn't 3betting enough, then it's a suicidal adjustment to 4bet this because you're doing so vs a nitted/nutted range with basically no fold equity and a f*cked up SPR post. If the population's IP 3b range here is mostly linear, and it will be if it's 5/T+, this is a perfectly fine hand to call with because you're folding way too much otherwise. Ofc caveat is preflop population aggression and there's no reason to assume this game plays particularly nitty. If we were talking about a hyper passive 2/5, it's probably a fold - but never a 4bet. If your villain has enough bluffs to 3b you IP light to the point where you think 4betting might be a good idea, this is reason enough to simply call with a hand like this.

200bbs Makes it even more of a fist pump call lol.

Shut down on blank rivers and bluff shove heart rivers. Yeah expecting around 40-50% folds on the turn which doesn't sound great at first until you figure out that river EV will be around break even because you get to profitably bluff shove heart rivers and lots of implied odds when he heros Tx on offsuit 9 and 4 rivers. Being in position makes it even more profitable because people will usually split their range on heart rivers meaning they'll lead jam flushes and check Tx.

This is so lol dude. I wish we could play this out a few hundred times: You get to be out of position with a capped range and deep, and I get to be in position with an UNCAPPED range and deep. Do you want to guess who is going to win? The player in position doesn't even have to be that good- in fact, the in position player can be pretty mediocre-- BUT the fact that his range is UNCAPPED and he's IN POSITION and that youre DEEP means he's going to totally destroy you.

I also can't believe the bolded. If he's nitty then you just fold which I said 4b or fold. If you think he's 3betting light- then 4b for tons of reasons. If think he has more value hands than bluffs then fold. It's really simple. Sometimes you just get ****ed and you have to deal with it. This is one of those spots. Being out of position and having a capped range by call/3b is just so ****ing bad and hurts us way more than villain having some bluffs in his range. Like if he's getting you to call with this ****- then he's already won even before flop turn and river are dealt (as I explained above). Let that sink in.

Your preflop range is capped. That doesn't mean you are capped when the community cards are dealt. Which is why a hand that can make the nuts such as ATs is very good to have in your calling range.

Lol okay so what are you calling with pre? 0% range?

Chekie raisie H1

I thought about writing another wall of text in response- which would probably help your game immensely, but 1. I don't think Avarita would appreciate it 2. I've already given more than enough information to point you in the right direction, and 3. all you've done is give snarky comments without any real substance to back up your backwards plays/ awful logic

Calling a 3b with ATs OOP, deep, against a reg, readless is just super, super bad. By some standards it can be viewed as a real fish play.

The problem with 4betting hand 1 (among other long term ones) is V still has the option of calling and there's a decent chance he won't have a 5betting range in position with these stack sizes. So when he calls hero will be playing an even bigger pot OOP and possibly still against an uncapped range but definitely against a stronger range. Also idk about anyone else but I play a lot worse in 4bet pots vs 3bet.

You're just wrong. You only have to do better than - 350 bb/100 by calling. In my only sample of the last few 100k hands I win 5 bb/100 calling ATs oop to a 3 bet against much tougher villains than your average live reg. There's just no way that calling doesn't print compared to fold.

Calling the 3bet is definitely better than folding, but is 4betting better than calling? I've been looking through my Bovada database and it seems like 4betting non premiums OOP does better than calling non premiums OOP. I think this is because they don't really know your game yet so they won't go for a 5bet bluff nor flat the 4bet light. This can also apply to live if there isn't a dynamic/history established yet.

I call ATs live and online but it's reg dependent for live and 3b range there could just so different than online. Online is a snapple call, live I can see myself folding vs some regs. It's a known fact live regs don't 3b/defend properly.

You're also way better than the average live pro though sunk. The likelihood of Andes or meale calling this and then doing something stupid post and getting stacked is basically a lock- and live reg 3b ranges are way worse than the typical online grinders 3b range and also post flop frequencies.

I respect a ton of what you have to say- you're a really smart dude. But what may be profitable for you, will not be profitable for someone who isn't as skilled. Which is why the basic line is 4b or fold.

I filtered my online sample of 55K hands to called 3bet OOP with ATs, then any suited broadway to get a better sample and I'm also showing a profit.

Btn in hand 1 is a young reg with a relatively high 3bet%. I'd pretty much flat this hand vs any of the younger regs in my pool. Vs some of the older more passive players and also the avg. 2/5 player I think a default of folding is fine. We have many hands which can continue profitably vs a 3b and if we decide to 4b all of them it's going to create some obvious problems. Suited broadways tend to realize their equity well post flop so I'd rather take a hand that's more borderline like some AJo to 4bet bluff with

That one dude I told to go away already addressed this, and I don't know why I'm still surprised that people who are actually good at poker don't understand the simple concepts he laid out. Tunnel vision I guess.

Their ranges and play post being worse compared to online means you should be more inclined to call. If they aren't including enough bluffs in their range it is far easier to make correct decisions post flop. I'm curious as to what you guys open and then defend here and what you think the average young 5/T range looks like here.

"Without any real substance to back up my backward plays". All you've said is what you said in bold, about 3 times now.

Fact of the matter is, it's not bad. It's definitely the best play ainec. To folks considering 4betting this, remember this is CO vs BTN (if I remember correctly). If it was EP vs EP+1, (assuming EP+1 is aggressive enough pre), THEN 4betting looks like a slightly less bad option.

Or maybe he's right and you're horribly wrong and confused and so closed-minded and unwilling to listen to those who are better than you?

Personally- in this spot, against a reg, and assuming there are no fish behind me, 200bbs deep, i'm going to be 3betting pretty much anything playable because of how horribly live regs play 3b pots oop/ and because how narrow their 4b ranges are. Hi meele

That said, I know lol live regs/pros generally like to talk a much tougher game than they actually have... so in this spot I think the typical reg in position has a much wider calling range and a much tighter 3b range than what they are willing to admit- assuming there's no special dynamic going on.

Like a hand like AT is probably near the bottom of their 3b range (and they probably have no clue why they're doing it lol). Combined with the fact that they never bluff enough postflop, their post flop sizing is incredibly big/bad, and they aren't value betting near thin enough-- I just don't think calling a hand like ATs is that great, especially readless. As another poster said- it's best to have a good idea of their post flop game, considering all the live poker factors (how slow it is, how the only point in live poker is playing vs big fish , never getting a big sample on anyone etc)


lol you're a broke live donk bro. i've chatted/ battled a little with sunk way back- so yea, I respect what he has to say although I still disagree. My rusty af online game is still better than your live game- whenever you want to try and set up the scenario i described earlier (where I have an uncapped range, deep, in position vs your capped range, out of position, and deep), let me kno

If their 3b range is wide enough to consider 3 betting AT here then we are getting probably something like direct odds preflop to call, and a hand like ATs generally over realizes its equity. Being OOP you tend to under realize a few %, but the things you say about their post flop game help us instead of hinder us. Them never bluffing enough, sizing poorly, and not value betting thinly enough are great things for us. Consider this, would you rather call this against OTB redbaron or your average live pro? Against one of these you will be constantly facing tough decisions.

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Results-

Hand 1- my plan was call turn, evaluate river depending on card/bet size but mostly call down. So I call, don't remember the river card but he quickly checked back and my hand was good.

Hand 2- Folded turn

Hand 3- Yeah I think my betting/barreling with this many players may be too ambitious. I should probably check somewhere. Overbetting turn also crossed my mind. I called river and lost to 84 of spades



x/r turn? I feel like our hand is too good for that. What are we doing with all of our other Tx? Also, are we floating flop with hands like KQ/QJ bdfd?

FRUSTRATING online hands

1. Could probably just jam flop. As played...





2. Hero fold time? Worst turn card for my hand and I feel like it's going to be tough for IP to find enough bluffs





3. Meh





4. Went for it otr




Vegas trip is around the corner. The goal is to play 50+ hours

Online hands played- 59k
Live hours- 192/400

1. Without Qh I just jam flop. He takes a different line with JJ.
2. Fold is good. Most ppl will have more value than bluffs.
3. Yeah fold. Not enough bluffs because most likely 4bet bluffing hand is Ax and that checks back river. KQ prob barrels turn or plays hand differently by going bigger on flop and jamming turn.
4. Lead turn or river. C/jam looks fos because a ton of his hands are checking back river that would call a bet. Might be ok though because he should be capped at 1 pair and even though your line looks whack it's still pretty damn hard to bet/call 1 pair here.

Yeah for hand 4 I was thinking of a few different options. Could cbet/unload on club turns. Could lead turn. OTR I think having a x/jam range punishes him if he doesn't have slowplays, puts his Jx in a tough spot, makes money from his suited broadways that typically get to this river and want to bluff, protects the portion of my range that wants to get to showdown.

2 live hands

1) 5/T

I open +2 40 black AA, +3 unknown rec player calls (750), bb rec player calls (1k).

3way
Flop(125) J78 dhh

I cbet 100, +3 calls, bb folds. (could probably bet huge vs these 2 characters)

Turn(325) Td

x/x

River(325) To

x, he jams 620


2) 5/T/20

I open +2 60 black TT, LJ calls (same reg in my ATs hand, post #271), bb reg calls. ~3k eff. with both

3way
Flop(195) 542r

x, x, LJ bets 90, bb folds, I call

Turn(375) 8c bdfd

x, LJ bets 225, I call

River(825)6s

x, LJ bets 385.................



Hours- 197/400