Also not sure how this board "smacks the 4b range" at all.

what happens if we get check/jammed on (besides vomiting on ourselves)? And lol at AJ being in someone's 4b call range that isn't a whale or psycho. Your games must be off the chain if you can regularly put AJ in someone's range here. And we block none of them. All the more reason to check.

This

It's not a 4bet call range? It's a 4bet range? You do realise sometimes people 4bet as a bluff, particularly vs IP 3b squeezes, and AJ is a pretty great hand to do it with.

I find it exceedingly unlikely that someone would check a turned FD and on the occasion that they do, to xc it and not xr. And that they then don't consider donking river when it completes.

Think people are just scared of monsters for no good reason here.

You deff have to turn some pairs into bluffs.. I dont think red KK is one of them, but it is live poker and the "long run" wont happen.

Rip it in or check back for sure

It's not a bluff? It's a value bet?

If V has AJ/AQ/AK here and sees some ridiculously small river sizing, he should sometimes x/jam river as a bluff.

I realize people can 4b bluff. Doesn't mean that it isn't value 95% of the time when it happens. Villain's range at this point looks like a ton of AK and the occasional weak pair. It could be a flush draw that got there (I don't think a turned FD is gonna x/jam turn as much as you think-we have all the sets in our range as well).

The bottom line is there are very few hands we can get value from on the river IMO.

I think the evalue of betting tiny and calling a jam (probably induced) is better than checking behind.

I think we are both in agreement that if we bet super tiny OTR we can't fold to a shove.

Yes and I wouldn't want to.

we have the best hand here sometimes sure but the question is does a value shove get called by worse and the answer is a clear no unless he's really bad

And I'm not turning the top of my value range into a bluff when we're not getting folds anyway...if that was the question.

I never said shove. Just because spr is less than one, doesn't mean we can't bet 300-400 here.

I can get behind having a tiny bet size, I do it myself in these spots sometimes.. but you have to atleast beat AA

lol meale. just stop. it's a 5/10 live FULL RING reg vs reg 4bet pot in 2017.

Villain has AA, KK, AKss and maybe a couple other combos of flushes like A2-A5 that decided to 4b bluff and peel the small turn bet. That's his entire range. Regs dont 4b other regs "light" in live full ring poker at 5/10+ with no dynamic.

But, for the sake of discussion lets assume Villain is capable and actually does 4b "light". The VERY FIRST HANDS that any regular would add into their 4b range is... you guessed it... QQ, JJ. And I can't for the life of me think of any semi competent regular who would 4b bluff AJ in this scenario.

Really simple check back spot

I mean the fact that hero flatted the 4b to begin with should be making villain a little nervous / very aware of what most lol flat 4b ranges look like in fullring.

The other guy mentioned it, but by betting this you're essentially turning it into a bluff/ a spot where you're never getting called by worse. Which... theoretically you should be bluffing some but frankly... villain is at the top of his range and isn't ever going to fold AA or KK imo.

final edit: and a big lol at thinking regs can and do xjam naked flush draws in 4b pots that completely smashes their opponents range. its lighting money on fire.

The KK hand is a "feel" spot that occurs in live poker. When I used to only played online poker I would have scoffed at this statement, but now I really believe it's true. You can glean so much extra edge in these spots if you have pinpoint reads on people.

When SPR is low and ranges are narrow it is very easy to mathematically analyze the optimal line at every street. There are numerous calculators online that can help you with this; it's also pretty simple to think through in your head. The only variable you need to know is the range of hands V plays this exact way on this exact hand at this exact time with this exact physicality with this exact game flow and your exact table image.

The math is easy. The rest is up to your ability to read Villain, which in live poker is — in my opinion — what separates the good from the better.

As a default I think I lean towards checking. If I were in LJ's spot I'd double check AA a decent amount, so in the co playing against myself KK is probably too thin if you weigh getting value owned vs AA/some flushes compared to getting called by AQ/AJ.

I've played a lot of hours with this reg and a tendency I've noticed is I think he bets too thin/mergey OOP on turn and rivers in general. For ex., in spots where draws complete/the board gets more scary and he should be doing a lot of xing i'll see him bet his TP, any pair + fd, 2 pair on 4 straight or 4 flush board, etc., leaving his turn xing range unprotected. This gives me incentive to bet a higher freq./go thinner for value. Whether or not this tendency translates to this spot in a 4 bet pot, idk. I went back and forth in my head thinking it's unlikely this player double checks AA, or x/c turned FD.

I decided to bet 515, a little more than 1/4 pot. He tank/folds what he says to be AK. I think AA is a clear vb and against this player I think betting KK is borderline better than xing at best, but I can still be convinced the opposite.

Also, I planned on bet/folding. I'm ok with the assumption that with this spr, this spot is going to be way underbluffed/almost never bluffed. How many of you guys can honestly say in a 4b pot in his spot with essentially a min raise behind you have xr bluffs? Think you have fold equity?

Sooooo many regs are pro at doing this. I'm guessing their logic is since people love heroing worse so much that they can try to merge even more hands to look like they are bluffing... and it works way too often surprisingly

turn x/call with AKo is really, really bad.

if regs in your player pool are x/calling with the hopes of lol chopping... then yeah i could get behind a small bet on the river... but it would have to be a stupid amount... like $150

Had you included this information in the initial post, I could be swayed towards a small bet OTR like you did, esp if he could convince himself to hero for a chop at the end.

In a vacuum, checking behind here vs most players is correct as A) they're not going to hero here in a 4-bet pot with A-high, and B) we will own ourselves versus his value range. I can't think of a hand we can get value from except for *maybe* one out of the 3 suited combos of AQ.

I agree with you though - we should bet AA OTR.

I get really surprised at some of these converstations bc i assume you guys are rio wizards and Im not up with the times but then i just realize you way overthink things and have fps. I typed this as politely as I could but I mean of course AA is a value bet, as you now beat 6 more hands (more than 2x his value range here)...6 hands that by the way also probably sigh call even though they still beat nothing.

I highly doubt he had AK but if he did (or AQ, or whatever) then it rly doesnt even need to be a post bc you play in some of the best games in the country and you dont need us to give high level strat to people that are x/calling AK on QJxx flops in 4 bet pots oop.

Also this type of thinking is not good. There are plenty of spots in live poker or poker in general where you need to check back a strong holding or play cautiously vs a range. Just as there are times where you can super thin value bet a weaker holding.

You value bet when it will be called by worse 50% of the time. Not bc "i haz strong hand". Now its true that the stronger your holding then the more of villains range you beat so you value bet more etc etc but still just how often we are called by worse is our #1 priority and how we play diff parts of our range is our way way way down #2 priority.

Tryingto figure out what exactly you disagree with and why

You was referencing the collective not you individually, though i would include you in that collective.

This is 2017 online poker in a nutshell:

"Villain is throwing a perfectly balanced range of rock paper scissors, with no concern for our own range. How do we challenge that strategy?"

2p2 answers: "gto blah blah balance blah solver blah libratus blah blah"

This is live poker in 2017, 2003, 3046, whatever.

"Villain is throwing rock 90% of the time. He also has bad bo and his ass crack is showing. How do we challenge that strategy"

2p2 answers: "gto blah blah balance blah solver blah libratus blah blah"

When the answer is clearly to throw paper, get a seat change, and take a picture of him and post to people of wal-mart.

I think your other 2 cards are important too


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