You can still improve without a HUD or stat tracking.

The main answer is experience. How long have you been playing? There are a lot of great threads in the micro stakes forums, like this one:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...sively-166132/

If money is no issue then I would buy the small stakes version of HM2, the Bovada Hand Converter and Holdem Indicator. But I don't think any of these are necessary. You should be able to beat 5NL by playing tight. You may just need to play more hands to learn the fundamentals. I don't think hand review or a HUD is going to take a losing 5NL player and make him a winner. Everyone is different though. I know I need a HUD if I am playing more than 2 tables. And hand reviewing is critical for developing your thought process. There just isn't that much you need to know at 5NL other than to play tight and solid. Bet for value. If you think your hand is the best, continue betting.

The main leak in the micros is people call too much. Stop calling without a pocket pair. Start raising broadways in late position. Get comfortable c-betting your good and bad hands. If you flop a flush draw, don't be afraid to put out a bet. When you hit you will make a lot of money and you allow yourself to take down the pot a lot of the time. Now, if the table is calling every bet on every street with bottom pair, then you can adjust by playing tighter and only betting your good hands.

If you are still having trouble then you may want to watch a few micro stakes training videos. Runitonce essential membership is $10/month. Deucescracked has a free trial for 7 days too. I don't think you need them to beat 5NL but the micro stakes videos certainly won't hurt you.

Hi Outfit,

I would try out the 10NL Zone games and 25NL full ring. The only issue with full ring is that you may not generate the rake needed to clear the entire bonus. If you run good and can get 50+ buyins you may be able to try out 25NL zone, but the 25NL zone games are a significant skill leap from 10NL. So I would stay out of there for awhile.

You could also try two 6max or full ring 25NL tables simultaneously with two 10NL Zone tables. If you are comfortable 4 tabling.

I would definitely stick to the cash games and try and incorporate some Zone poker, or some 6max 25NL so that you can generate a decent amount of rake. I doubt you will clear the entire $1k bonus, but a few hundred is still a great deal if you are playing 10/25NL.

Make sure you track your bonus progress and know when you are going to release the next chunk of $ so that you don't fall a few points short of clearing the next level of the bonus before it expires. I think you have 2 months to clear it.

Yeah I've been playing for several months on and off online. I like to play live but it's difficult to play without at least like 10 BI roll (which I don't have). At least it feels that way. Recently I've been trying to play zone and I've been getting annihilated. Normal cash 9 ring I've been doing poorly but 6 Max cash 5nl I've had some success with. I've logged around 5k hands in the last month so I know the sample size is rather small. I've had the most success playing DoNs and TU but I like cash game more and the SnG skillset is a very specific skillset IMO because of ICM (I know it will help with mtts to some degree). Is it even necessary to start at 5nl or if I could deposit like 300-400 do you think I could start with 10NL? Not trying to skip stakes or anything, but I have read that the rake is pretty killer until you get to like 25NL+. I've noticed how different live and online play and that may be part of the reason I've had trouble online perhaps. Live people are more likely to attempt to pull off "tricky" bluffs and limp call raises a **** ton. At least 1/3 is like that from my experience. One reason I subbed was because I noticed you felt somewhat the same way I do about wanting to play live but starting with online to develop skills and then later you were like damn online is pretty legit. So maybe that'll happen for me as well. I may just be thinking too far in advance. Just ranting

It depends on what your goals are. If you want to just improve your game all around then play cash, not DoN's or TU's. They are pretty irrelevant to anything other than bubble and short stacked play.

I'd play 5NL 6max if I were you. Follow strict BRM. Don't play zone if you are not comfortable. Try 30 buyin BRM. So when you hit $300 then you can move up to 10NL.

The reason I suggest strict BRM is because it will force you to beat the game before moving up. If you deposit a large amount you may skew your actual winrate and not be fully aware of how good or bad you actually are.

The rake is brutal up to 100NL. Last month at 50NL I was paying almost one buyin per day in rake. If you can beat the rake and move up the ranks from a small deposit then you surely are a winning player.

I had no intentions of taking online seriously. I just wanted to build a $2k roll in a year and start playing live comfortably. But now I realize that my winrate online is higher than it would be live. I also am improving my game by playing hundreds of thousands hands vs tougher opponents. Until I am rolled for 2/5 live I don't plan on taking it seriously. It's also a hassle to get to the casino, deal with drunk people and play in the middle of the night when the games are best. Not to mention how boring 10 handed poker is when you are card dead.

If you have the money you can deposit but don't play 10NL if you are not comfortable at that stake. Because the stakes are so low you really shouldn't care about the money at this point. Your goal should be to make a tiny profit or break even while improving your game. If you stick with it long-term, the skills you learn at 5NL and 10NL will shape you into the player that is beating 200NL. Don't get too attached to your winnings or losses because it really doesn't matter. If you lose 10 buyins but drastically improve your game in that time period, then it was worth losing 10 buyins. Consider it an investment in your future game instead of a temporary amount of money you won or lost.

Check out some RunItOnce micro cash training videos. You can get a $10 subscription for 1 month and there is a lot of good content on there. I still think you should just experiment yourself at 5NL but some extra info won't hurt you.

Again thanks for all of the great advice. I will probably play this $60 bucks until I go broke and then deposit $150 or gain around 10+ BIs and maybe add another $50 or so to the account. When did you start keeping track of # of hands played? My long term goals definitely seem to be aligned with playing cash games. So I will focus on cash for now. I remember you saying if you're playing more than 2 tables you need a HUD. Do you think it makes sense to get the HUD and play 4 tables or to focus a lot on 1-2 tables and then later implementing more tables and a HUD. Part of the reason I'm asking is because gaining hand volume is super slow with 1-2 tables imo. Money also isn't an issue in this instance.

Try 2 tabling and add up to 4 depending on how you are doing. At first I was very uncomfortable 4-tabling. My game suffered a lot and I was auto-piloting instead of thinking hands through. I now am comfortable 4 tabling but I know for sure that my game was awful 4 tabling a few months ago. 1-2 was always best.

I would rather you play 10NL on two tables vs 4 tabling 5NL. Deposit more if you need to and just focus on each hand. When you get comfortable you can add in Holdem Indicator and use it just to solidify your reads. Then eventually try 3 tabling and 4 tabling.

Some players are better off playing double the stake and 1 or 2 tabling. What good is 4 tables if you are breaking even or losing AND not improving as much as you could?

You can just buy holdem indicator and try it out with just the VPIP and PFR stats and 2 table.

Some of my best sessions were 2 tabling without a HUD and focusing on every hand and taking notes on all the players. You can beat the games even if you are only playing 2 tables.

I bought HM2 small stakes version when I started playing 25NL. My roll was around $600 at the time.

All of your advice is much appreciated. I don't want to jinx anything and I know 900 hands isn't very many, but I'm up 5.7 BIs (28.50) playing 2 tables 6 max since yesterday. ;P

Feels like my notes are helping a ton and I'm able to take more time with decisions because I'm only playing 2 tables.

Quick update:

The bankroll just topped out at an all-time high of $4.2k. I've been crushing the full ring and Zone games the last few days. My plan is to keep focusing on Zone and full ring and keep building my bankroll. When I hit $10,000 I will start shot taking some 1/2 full ring.

I was on a bit of monkey tilt for a few days there. Fortunately, I am in a better state of mind and very confident in my game right now.

As embarrassing as it is.. I will admit during those few days of monkey tilt I did play some FLO8 and PLO and dropped about $200. My urge to play that game only comes out when I am tilting hard. I think it's because of how quickly you can win in those games. When I feel unjustifiably beaten for a few buyins and start tilting I have a tendency to go over to those games. I did not spew in them at all, actually I just ran really bad in a few huge pots.

Thanks to everyone who is following my thread. Feel free to ask any questions and I will do my best to answer them.

+641.56
Bankroll: $4213.56

Awesome Rian! Keep it up man. I really encourage new players to play 1 or 2 tables. The money doesn't matter. Focus on improving and the money will come. Take lots of notes and figure out a color coding system. I use green for whales, red for nits("watch out" they have it when they bet), and yellow to mark tricky players who did something unconventional.

Hey man,
Just giving a little update to stimulate some discussion. Not trying to jack your thread so let me know if you feel I am. Anyway I've played around 3900 hands at 6max 5nl and I am up 34.50 and beating the stakes around 17.5 BB/100 (I know it's a small sample size but feels good nonetheless) Also, I just said eff it and got the HUD since I will probably use it eventually anyway so I may as well experiment with it when the money doesn't matter. I've also started playing 4 tables pretty regularly. It's a challenge to take as good of notes as 2 tables, but with the HUD it doesn't even feel too necessary to take good notes at 5nl. I am wondering if 10NL plays just about the same and should be taking a shot soon. Thoughts? Also, congrats on your new BR high!

Thanks, Rian.

You are welcome to post here anytime. Don't feel like you are taking up my thread. The idea is for people to help me and track my progress, and for me to help other people who were in my shoes a few months ago.

What is your bankroll right now? I would start shot taking 10NL with 25 buyins or so. If you are 4 tabling then start by adding just 1 10NL table. Then 2, 3, and eventually 4. This way you can get a feel for it without potentially going busto by getting crushed 4 tabling a higher stake than you are used to. Or just 2 table 10NL. A good rule is to never have more than 20% of your BR in play at any time. 10% is better but at your stakes you may be OK going a little bit aggressive as long as you move down if you get crushed.

I can't play a cash game without a HUD if I play more than 1 or 2 tables. No way. I need to know who the guy is who is running 88/65 or the nit running 4/4 over 70 hands. Any more than 2 tables and you really do need a basic HUD. I only use the VPIP and PFR stat on my Holdem Indicator. The other stats don't mean much at 5NL, plus you can hover over them to see the detailed stats.

In terms of 10NL vs 5NL, it actually plays a lot tighter from what I recall. It's still super soft but the players may be a bit more competent than you are used to. At 17bb/100 your tight solid game should crush 10NL as well. Just don't bluff, don't do anything stupid. Bet for value. If you have AK and the board reads A739Jr, bet the river for value if he check called you to the river. The lower stakes games play very passive and if you get check raised then it probably means they do indeed have a hand. If they are calling stations then you can get some thin value from hands you did not expect to get value from.

By the way you could try out some 5NL zone at some point. Your hourly there should be more than 10NL 6max table. I did get crushed at zone at first so be careful there.

It sounds like you are getting improving nicely. Keep it up bro!

Jul 1-20 Holdem Graph:


Cash has been going really well. I got robbed in a few big $55 MTTs near the bubble. I'm running very -EV this month overall. Hopefully things turn around and I can get on track to that 10K roll and start shot taking 1/2.

+25.38
Bankroll: $4238.94

I actually did 2 table 10NL last night and like you mentioned it was much tighter than 5NL is. I ended up going up 2.69 over 430 hands. Made one really stupid play where it was 4 handed multiway where I raised KK UTG and got 3 calls. pot 1.20 Flop comes 10c9c7s. Hero (effstack $11.00) cbet .90 V1 calls, fold, V2 (effstack $9.00) raises to 4.00 Hero shoves V1 folds V2 calls with Jc8c. ;( I just have to remember with so many people that I can easily be dominated here by at least 2 pair. I end up focusing and not tilting and played for another 4 hours and got stacked 2 more times then I stacked 2.5 people and ended up getting up to $29 on one table and around $15 on another table. I didn't end up making more than $2.69 because of reloads. BTW with the HUD I have noticed my range is from vpip 30 PFR 25 to vpip 20 pfr 17 where the HUD is labeling me either slightly loose aggressive solid or tight aggressive solid. Sometimes LAG when I get closer to the 34 vpip range. (Thought that was interesting)

One other hand I am curious about is this hand where effstack $5.00-$6.00 I had 8c7c in CO MP raises 3x and rest fold. Flop is Qc6c7s. Pot .75 MP bets .50 I call. Turn is 7d. Pot $1.75 He checks I bet $1.50 he shoves around $4.50. Hero?



Anyway, my current roll is $156. I will be playing 2 10NL tables again today and will post an update later. Curious what you use for your stat tracking? I have a mac so I am using iHoldemindicator but I just use excel for BR, #hands, 100bb, etc

Re: KK hand: That is one of the worst flops for your hand. Multi way with a suited straight out there you can comfortably fold most of the time facing a big raise. At best your usually up against a monster draw.

The 87cc hand is a snap call. I actually would raise that flop and get it in. You are never, ever folding there. He has AA, KK, AQ, KQ type hands way more often than boats, all of which you dominate. He could even have a big flush draw which you also dominate.

For tracking stats I use the Bovada Hand Converter + Holdem Manager 2. I think the hand converter is for Windows users only, not OS X. I use a macbook pro but boot camp into windows 7 for poker and gaming.

If you do get HM2 and some way to import your hands then you can easily copy/paste hands on the forums and get input. I highly suggest you figure out a way to not have to type them out manually. It helps a lot to get others views on tricky spots. Being able to post them in a matter of seconds helps. Not to mention how much easier they are to read.

Just read through the thread man, congrats and good luck! I love reading about how people deposit a small amount and just run it up online.

Looks like you should just play a full MTT schedule!

Redline is super tuff, people say bluff and barrel more but its hard when no one likes to fold. I think there's a lot of value in just playing solid and value betting too.

What software do you use while playing? HM2/Hand converter & holdem indicator? Anything else?

Hi Gutpunch,

Thanks for checking out my thread!

I love MTT's I just don't like the fact that you can play perfect poker and not run deep in many of them due to not winning flips or getting coolered just once. At least in cash if you are really crushing you will win month after month. I also tend to lose focus after a few straight hours of playing so it's nice to be ale to get up and leave the house every so often. Then again, nothing beats that final table feeling. I have yet to put in any real volume in the mid stakes MTTs so who knows how good I actually am at them.

Here's the thing about the redline. I know for a fact that my redline isn't great, however, these players snap call you with TPWK on a scary board that you 3 barrel. I've been snapped off by middle pair for stacks after 3 barreling with a NIT image. Situations where I show up with very few bluffs and the overwhelming majority of the time have a monster value hand I get snapped off. So I tend to focus on value betting more than bluffing. At least on the U.S. facing sites where the games tend to be less aggressive.

While playing I use StackandTile and Holdem Indicator. I use the hand converter + HM2 for reviewing hands/stats after my sessions. Stackandtile is for positioning tables and hotkeys.

the thing is the majority of your opponents at the stakes youre playing arent playing your image or you really for that matter. keep up the good work!

What are your cbetting thoughts HU-3handed IP/OOP. I feel that people float a lot IP or OOP and either lead out OTT OOP or lead out OTT IP if checked too. Also worth mentioning dry vs wet flops. So many times I find players IP betting boards like 44Q with a FD after hero pfr and checks OOP. With the HUD you can see percentage of the time they float/fire cbets. For people that have called 6/6 cbets OTF are you cbetting broadway hands that miss on boards like J-7 high boards. Do you even find that statistic useful at micros? I believe you're going to say no because I think you said you only care about pfr/vpip.

Played absolutely horrible today. Got coolered a few times and started tilting. Before I knew it I was playing various random games and blowing stacks. Just awful. No actual spew, just poor play and a ton of bad beats. I was really looking forward to playing this weekend too. Now I am disgusted with my play and lack of overall progress. I am up $1300 in cash games after grinding them for months on end, dozens of hours per week. I don't know if the $2,500 in rake per month is killing me or if I am just not beating the games as much as I thought I was. I really don't know.

Maybe I should listen to some of you guys and go back to playing MTTs. I prefer cash but looking at the fact that I am paying upwards of $25,000 per year in rake it seems almost impossible to really build a roll playing only cash games up to 100NL. I could also give the high stakes SnGs a try and see how they are.

I made $2.3k playing $5 and $10 MTTs yet have only made about $1800 playing 50/100NL for months on end. My cash winrates are between 10-20bb/100 at 50NL and 100NL. Surely it has to be the rake and various Omaha spew sessions that are killing my roll.

I logged in today in a bad mood and exhausted so that was probably my first mistake. I should not have even started playing, knowing that a few coolers later I would be on monkey tilt.

/endtiltrant

-676.85
Bankroll: $3562.09

why not mix in mtts with your cash once and awhile? and uhhhhh yeah the omaha sessions which youve sworn off numerous times are definitely hurting your roll

I requested a three day ban from Bovada which will expire tomorrow. I ended up losing $1700 in a 4 day period. Coolers, sick bad beats, runbad, tilt and playing games I shouldn't were the reason I blew so much $. I am down $1k in EV this month but that doesn't matter. I lost a lot of money playing tilted.

So the storyline continues... crush the games for 10+bb/100, get coolered/run bad combined with fatigue and a 10 hour sessions and I am full monkey tilting with no intention of stopping because I want my money back. I feel robbed, unjustifiably beaten in spots where I played flawlessly. I should not care if I win or lose to a 4 outer but I do. Maybe it's because I want to 'make it' so badly. Or I am overly attached to the money. If I lose four 80/20s in an hour for stacks I am going to start playing a game that is sub-optimal. I won't spew but I'll open my game up and start 4-betting suited connectors more and start calling 3bets wider. If I can't win at showdown because I get sucked out on, I'll just pound them with aggression and make them fold. I can't lose if they fold, right...?

It would be easier to just say to 'stop tilting' but I don't think that is the solution. You don't just stop tilting. I've identified a lot of my triggers in the past(fatigue, 8 hour sessions, not taking breaks, playing under-rolled, etc). I mostly got over these issues but recently started playing way too much. I mean like 50 hours per week. I think that is the majority of the problem. I have been really trying to put in a ton of volume... 30k hands this month and that was only 24 days in.

Because I have been playing so much my overall satisfaction with life is too connected with my bankroll. If I'm up $800 one day I am happy, if I am down $800 I'm not. My results should not dictate how I feel. If they do, then I don't have enough non-poker things going on in my life. I think the solution here is to just play less and go out and do things that are not poker related. Hopefully I can find a good balance and not take poker too seriously. I have a personality flaw where I tend to get obsessed with being the best at something and won't settle for anything other than dominating my opponents. I have always been this way. I suppose it's good in some ways and bad in others. In poker I cannot control whether or not I beat my opponents. I can only make profitable investments and hope they add up long-term. At least in a sport like golf if I make a critical mistake and get tilted I only have myself to blame. In poker I will also get tilted after getting sucked out on repeatedly even though I made the 'perfect' play. It doesn't make much sense.

The rake is another thing that I think got to me. I have paid $2,500 in rake this month up until the 26th. If I also run 10 buyins under EV and I pay 1 buyin per day in rake it's nearly impossible for me to move up and get to 200NL. That's a net loss of 35 buyins in a few weeks of playing. Maybe I should't be frustrated with my game if I am really running that bad and paying so much in rake.

If I can minimize the random fixed limit and Omaha shenanigans I will hopefully hit a patch of neutral or positive variance where I can get my BR up. I know I have the skills to crush hold'em.

My goals for the near future:

Stop playing so much. No more 8 hour straight sessions. If I run bad for 6 hours there is a 0% chance I am playing well for the last 2. Period. If I am running good that is also not an excuse to play an 8 hour session.

Focus on other non-poker things

Stop caring about results and letting them dictate my life

No fixed limit games

No more than 4 tables

Set a 5 buy-in stop-loss. If I ever drop 5 buyins in one session I need to close the client immediately. If I don't think I have the self control then I can email bovada and request a temporary ban. No exceptions.

______________________________________________

Thank you to everyone who has supported me and wished me well along my journey thus far. Whether it's telling me to keep up the good work or calling me out for doing stupid stuff, you are all appreciated.

See you at the tables.

-737.09
Bankroll(Estimate): $2825

Sounds like your tilt is coming from putting too much pressure on yourself to build the roll. If you value the long term over the short term, just pick the game you enjoy playing the most, put all of your volume and study into that, and let whatever happen happen.

Have you read the mental game of poker?

I used to have serious issues with 'playing to get even' and I found that my most frustrating sessions would almost always be ones where I played longer than usual because I wanted to reduce my loss for the day. What typically happened was that I would be down anywhere from 2-10 buyins from suckouts/runbad, and I would continue playing much later than usual. Then I would get stacks in with AA preflop or gii on the flop with a set - and get sucked out on YET AGAIN.

That's what really crushed me mentally and emotionally. After a long and tough day of runbad, I would get my money in hugely ahead (with a chance to get even or significantly reduce my day's losses) and get crushed once more. After this happened many times, I decided I could not take it anymore mentally.

So I now play a fixed schedule - quitting at the exact same time every night no matter what. For me this schedule is from 5pm-9pm with a break in the middle on weeknights. At 9 i always sit out my tables, review my big hands and post HHs to forums. I would suggest setting a fixed time to quit, it will really help reduce the pain from your worst sessions.

+1 to the posts above. Stop playing PLO or another game you're not proficient in, especially while tilted or losing. Read the Mental Game of Poker and DO what it says in the book. Take action. Tilt issues don't resolve themselves.

Trust me I feel your pain. I'm down 20 buy ins in EV alone in the last 3 months on Bovada. And for me that's $20k. Just coming out of a ******ed downswing and finally running ok this month. I've dealt with the tilt issues you mention and still do from time to time. Some people have to work hard on their mental game while others don't. It's the way it goes.

This game is brutal and can crush your confidence and make you question everything you know. It can also make the worst player in the world think he can beat the best. That is the truly beautiful characteristic of poker. All we can do is focus on making optimal decisions and learn from our mistakes.

Good luck buddy and if you want some tips on tilt you can PM me.

I definitely agree.

BTW my favorite game by far is PLO. I just get crushed whenever I play it. I also ran awful over a pretty small sample. Regardless, I waaaaay prefer PLO to any other cash game. Not even close.
Hi Tim,

I got the audiobook a few months ago. I'll listen to it again soon. It described basically all of my tilt issues exactly and allowed me to realize some of my triggers. A+ book for sure.