I mean if you use those categories, [professional gaming] vs. [some office job or low-mid management], it seems pretty unfair to me to not put poker in the former because you literally are playing a game professionally.

I could definitely be convinced otherwise but haven't really seen any good arguments yet

I meant that you should be comparing it against all the options, and it makes no sense to filter. Sure, it fits that categorization, and sure it is much easier than other gaming, but thats irrekevant, because most people don’t have professional gaming as their alternative career path.

It’s like saying poker is much easier to succeed in compared to professional slots or black jack, in terms of gambling in casinos for a living*, but that’s not really a relevant statistic, because most people wouldnt recommend those careers or use them as a reference point either.

*Not entirely sure if those examples are correct, I assume you get barred really easily in black jack these days, and slots have huge variance and not enough +EV spots.

Hmm interesting. I guess going back to

If you're looking at it from a perspective from is it easier to do poker or an office job, yeah I don't disagree that it's easier to do an office job

Hey, welcome back! Glad to see that things are going well. Is 50 the answer to the chart in the lower left hand corner? I guess it could be 40 if you only go with what is visible.

Just did it, I got 23

Just coming across this thread now, JW where do you currently stand with regards to your goals?

Also good luck

Also coming back to this- ignored it at first because I was annoyed at what I perceived to be a fake congratulatory tone (I read it as "ya anyone can beat ignition but nice job anyway i guess") which I don't know if Mepslol intended at all so my bad.

Back to the point, yeah everyone knows that US sites are softer but my post was Americentric to begin with- for example I just assumed my conversation with PixieRust was talking about US office jobs.

Yeah, I didn't do the order right. Are you going to keep posting about your online progress? Have you played on Global Poker, or are you staying with anonymous player sites?

Jesus christ use the hand converter

DUDE I SAID I WAS GOING TO NEXT TIME

Don't really have clear goals tbh as the ones I posted a couple weeks ago aren't nearly ambitious enough. I guess short term I want to get like 100k hands in at NL200z

Maybe yes, maybe no. Can't predict what I'll feel like posting in the future. Here's 15 days in though. I'm definitely still struggling in the trial by fire phase, but I feel very optimistic because I'm learning quite a lot from each day to the next:

Are you still playing live?

Haven't. Been too excited to study/play online, been doing 10-12 hours a day for the past couple weeks. Reminds me of my early live poker days where I keep feeling like I should take a break in fear of burnout but I just can't resist it's too fun. I suspect I'm very close to breakeven at NL200z at the moment but it's really hard to tell, small samples. Also this obviously has led to a low amount of social interaction in my life too so a bit concerned about that too but I'll manage :P

Alright here we go, first stream (graphics aren't set up or anything). Come critique my NL200z play

https://www.twitch.tv/aaesah

Loved the stream (Khadice here). Actually pretty informative stuff!

^ Thank you

Alright as I mentioned before there is a fkton of stuff I wanna talk about. I'm just gonna try my best to shoot some words out because if I stick to my natural perfectionist tendencies, then nothing will happen:

First I've been wanting to talk about downswings for awhile. No one can know for sure, but as for my best guess based on my own judgement from observing my experiences and comparing to stories I've heard from others, I believe I've experienced both sides of extended crazy positive variance as well as extended crazy negative variance with regards to poker (both of which I'm thankful for). However one thing is for sure. My attitude was garbage during the negative variance. It's easy to finish a 6 hour live session and be like "yeah I lost 2k today, but I played alright and would be up if I didn't lose a 7k AIPF pot with AA vs AK", feel exhausted, chill out the rest of the night and then hit the grind the next day without a review. Yeah you may still be a winning player but your edges decrease over time and TBH if this is your default, then you're trash as a poker pro. And I'm not just sitting back throwing shade on other people- I'm speaking from experience, this was definitely me during 2016 and also the first 2 months of me playing live this year in 2018. Shape up or GTFO of the industry (hopefully the former , GL everyone )

For literally anyone of any skill level, if you play 100 hands with depth then you should have 100 hands that you can improve your understanding with review. And by depth I mean like any decision harder than say cbetting a T95r board vs BB after raising in CO with ATs- and even in that situation you can think about different bet sizings (including how preflop sizing affects flop ranges + stack sizes), exactly how trigger-happy a villain vs. weakness would have to be to make exploitably checking back a better option, and also how your decision is affected if you have a BDFD. Fk dude, it's worth taking a couple minutes here to think about the differences between if the 9 or 5 is in your suit. It's obviously not that big of a deal and you're obviously not doing it to memorize what to do in similar situations, but doing some non-zero amount of these exercises is mandatory to stay sharp (which I sometimes failed to do, and then- very embarrassingly- would fixate on external factors outside of my control rather than focus on what was in my power to do).

Second thing I want to talk about is directly related to downswings, and that is tilt. OK maybe some people out there don't tilt but many of us do. I'm going to use my experiences playing Bullet Heaven 2 here, and I'm pretty sure I've used this exact example in this thread before but I think it's probably the #1 most important thing for any readers to understand (with regards to poker).

Basically the game looks like this:


I can beat this level 90%+ of the time. However if I die on it and hit the retry button, my winrate is immediately down to like 50%. If I die a second time and hit retry, my winrate is like 20% even if I consciously think I'm not tilting and I feel completely fine. But obviously results speak for themselves, and I am tilted- I'm not a neurologist and don't know what being tilted entails, maybe part of my brain is distracted/focusing on the immediate past/etc. But for whatever reason, the fact is I'm not playing as well.

I don't think I need to say more, other than the implications of this on poker are huge.

Started reading the story of "The Home Game". The author describes a bunch of guys who almost can't walk by a blackjack table without putting at least one bet down, hoping they get lucky. But there was no luck to be had for them. If they won a hand, perhaps their first, they had to play the rush. If they lost, they'd have to double speed martingale. 1 2 3 4 -> 5 20 80 320 etc. If they push, then "that was boring"/"that didn't count".

My circles were different. The home games I've played in were generally filled with hardworking, successful guys. I was never really exposed to that much degeneracy. I mean even when when I got to the part about pushing in blackjack in the previous paragraph, I Googled it because I was like "fk I can't remember, can you even chop in blackjack or does dealer just win on ties?"

Instead I got friends like Sol Reader who plays Overwatch with me and we go to the beach and yeah we have some fun, but god damn does this kid's face light up when I ask him whether AdQh is better to cbet than AcQh on Td6d2s (let's say you have to check one and cbet one, which do you choose). In context of post #6217, spend 60 seconds thinking about it before clicking the spoiler!


~~~~~~~~~

I think these experiences affect how people view poker a lot. I find many posts on 2+2 talk about how it's a scummy environment, but I never felt that way. With my background in gaming, it felt just like another gaming community to me except most of the members were older and used more racist/sexist jokes and less memes.

I can only think of one guy I know where poker "ruined his life", and it had nothing to do with finances (he was clearly making an insane amount of money). Also everything I've heard is secondhand so don't know how much is true. Anyway this guy's wife left him after she found out he pretended to be at work while he was gambling. Now you might think that seems harsh, but it wasn't like a one time thing. He spent roughly 17 hours a day at the 5-10 tables, 3 more at 10-20 and 2 more at baccarat for several years without his wife even knowing that he ever gambled. So the way I see it, poker... well, it wasn't really poker's fault here.

Of course I've witnessed plenty of despair around poker as well. But I've also witnessed poker bring plenty of joy. Experiencing extreme emotions is energizing. Compared to twitch streamers playing video games with absolutely zero expectation of monetary reward, when watching various twitch streamers grinding poker online, they have just as much fun (yes, some fraction of it is for show). But it doesn't matter if they've been playing for years, they still get excited watching a big hand at their table that they aren't even involved in when it's QQ vs AK for stacks. I feel the same way.

Some memorable hands discussed during the stream. Think I'm OK with the first 3, could strongly consider river call in 4 with good blockers if villain isn't jamming mid pairs, x/r turn in 5 seems bad since people have AK here too often I think, jam turn in 6 seems best rather than going into river OOP with no SDV.

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Converted at http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/

Hero (SB) ($268.54)
BB ($429.95)
UTG ($127.73)
MP ($180.79)
CO ($492.95)
Button ($277.62)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q
1 fold, MP raises to $6, 2 folds, Hero raises to $24, 1 fold, MP calls $18

Flop: ($50) 10, 10, 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $14, MP raises to $156.79 (All-In), Hero calls $142.79

Turn: ($363.58) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($363.58) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $363.58 | Rake: $4

Results:


PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Converted at http://handhistoryconverter.com/

MP ($191)
CO ($207)
Button ($352.90)
SB ($141.10)
BB ($151.65)
Hero (UTG) ($510.49)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, J
Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, CO calls $6, 1 fold, SB calls $5, 1 fold

Flop: ($20) 7, 10, K (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $16, 1 fold, SB calls $16

Turn: ($52) J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $28, SB calls $28

River: ($108) 10 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $108, SB calls $91.10 (All-In)

Total pot: $290.20 | Rake: $4

Results:

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Converted at http://handhistoryconverter.com

Hero (BB) ($200)
UTG ($190.04)
MP ($229.30)
CO ($69.11)
Button ($150.12)
SB ($84.58)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3, K
3 folds, Button calls $2, 1 fold, Hero checks

Flop: ($5) Q, A, 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: ($5) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $4, Button calls $4

River: ($13) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $7, Button raises to $86.94, Hero folds

Total pot: $27 | Rake: $1.35

Results:

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Converted at http://www.handhistoryconverter.com/

CO ($162.56)
Button ($180.72)
SB ($378.67)
Hero (BB) ($296.80)
UTG ($98)
MP ($433.81)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, Q
3 folds, Button raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $24, Button calls $18

Flop: ($49) 3, 4, K (2 players)
Hero bets $16, Button calls $16

Turn: ($81) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $38, Button calls $38

River: ($157) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $102.72 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $157 | Rake: $4

Results:

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Converted at http://handhistoryconverter.com/

MP ($460.05)
CO ($693.99)
Button ($73.50)
SB ($961.03)
BB ($198)
Hero (UTG) ($424.16)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8, 9
Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, CO raises to $23, 3 folds, Hero calls $17

Flop: ($49) 4, 4, 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($49) K (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $20, Hero raises to $55, CO calls $35

River: ($159) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $60, Hero folds

Total pot: $159 | Rake: $4

Results:

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Converted at http://www.handhistoryconverter.com

Hero (CO) ($589.80)
Button ($187.05)
SB ($326.25)
BB ($95)
UTG ($220.10)
MP ($108)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6, 7
2 folds, Hero raises to $6, Button calls $6, 2 folds

Flop: ($15) 5, 3, Q (2 players)
Hero bets $8, Button raises to $21, Hero calls $13

Turn: ($57) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $37.86, Hero calls $37.86

River: ($132.72) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Total pot: $132.72 | Rake: $4

Results:

Strange play from KK!

I would have thought KJ is a bit thin, but then again, people seem to be quite loose in this game, but I wonder if that just means they will have more trips.

Good fold with K3, I'd be very suspicious. Did he show? I'm surprised he did.

I was going to say AQ seems like it could be a hero call, and I promise I didn't see the results! Thinking about it though, he's going to have Kx enough, even if we assume he never bets two pairs, so I guess folding is the correct play.

I think with the 89s, you should just usually realise the equity you have when you are laid a great price. I think if we want to check raise here, it's good to do it with either worse hands that don't block draws and can bluff rivers, or better draws that have more equity when we get called, and which we can just give up when we get called. It just seems with our hand, we don't have enough equity to make up for the times we get called, which is going to be fairly often.

That 67 hand is just weird. Can't see how else to play it though. I don't think there's any good reason to start donking on or taking alternative lines there, or check raising the turn.

Yeah I don't like the KJ river bet actually. Villain didn't show in any hand but Ignition allows you to see all player's cards 24 hours later (since it's anonymous tables it helps counteract collusion).

Will probably be taking a short break from online poker- I'm moving out of LA soon so need to wrap up a bunch of stuff, and also been realizing that I've been neglecting life balance (particularly, my social life) for poker.

Where are you moving?

As I mentioned about needing to amp up the social aspects of my life balance, I'm probably going to take the opportunity to go visit friends- 1st stop will most likely be Phoenix, AZ and may possibly do a report on the live poker there as well. Haven't really decided though which I know is unusual but that's the way I like it.

Been focusing on catching up with friends in my final days as a LA resident (for now, somehow I always end up back here). Made plans to see non-poker buddies in San Diego and Arizona in the coming month.

Feeling a lot more energetic and healthier overall now that I'm not entirely consuming my life with online poker (I'm still hyper-fueled to play, but have been slowing down on theory study). Also played my first live session since my east coast trip a few weeks ago and had an absolute blast. Table was definitely top tier in terms of fun (fun is often strongly correlated with bad play so that was nice too), but taking a short break and coming back to live was a good to refresh and remind me of all the things I loved about live poker in the first place that I'd forgotten or taken for granted- want to make a seperate post for this soon.

Will miss getting high and watching the sunsets on Santa Monica beach: