can you ever open all in shove in PLO?

I think you need to change your game to the mighty no limit holdem to go all in more often. get ready to be called a idiot or a donkey.

LG, my man.
Don't know if this will be any help, maybe you're approach is off.
Seems like you're trying to win instead of trying to learn.
Like I already mentioned, like you, I'm relatively new to the game.
I never had any expectations of crushing the game. I initially deposited 100 about two months ago and after a low of 94 and a high of about 194, I'm very happy to be at 111 right now.
Stop questioning how villains play. We are the fish.
Good luck.

if there's a 4bet you can get it in with a 5bet if I'm not mistaking. Just had that happen with me on BU vs SB I had AAxx he had KKxx and he spiked the K on the river but we were all in preflop. I don't recall the initial stack sizes but I have the auto top off on always so I know I had 100bb's at least.

You're 100% right. I just get very easily frustrated because I spend a lot of time off the table. A LOT! I get all excited to apply something new I learned and some button pusher takes down a bunch of pots OOP with bad equity and some horrible range. During that downswing it seemed like that was constantly happening. That's gonna happen and that's where I have to focus on my mental game. Mental game is a very big leak for me. I am super competitive and hate losing anything.

I write stuff directly on my laptop as reminders so they are in my face. Most recent one is "I am not entitled to win any pots no matter how good I play or how bad my opponent plays".

I write it next to my touchpad and my hands usually rub off what I write after a week or so but getting to see it for that week ingrains it in to my brain.

PLO All in pre. Took a 5bet to get there. Mental game put to the test here lol. AA was single suited but had one flush and two straight possibilities so wasn't AAjunkjunk. I tend to treat AA as a drawing hand preflop but if I get the opportunity to iso heads up or get the SPR low enough I play it strictly for raw equity. This was a textbook spot.


Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker Tracking Software

PL Omaha $0.05(BB)
HERO ($8.07) [VPIP: 22.9% | PFR: 18.9% | AGG: 31.3% | 3-Bet: 11.4%]
SB ($5.02) [VPIP: 22.9% | PFR: 22.9% | AGG: 14.3% | 3-Bet: 13.3% | Hands: 35]
BB ($7.13) [VPIP: 33.6% | PFR: 20.4% | AGG: 20.5% | 3-Bet: 6.5% | Hands: 113]
UTG ($5.07) [VPIP: 32.3% | PFR: 19.4% | AGG: 15.4% | 3-Bet: 10% | Hands: 31]
HJ ($2.37) [VPIP: 29.2% | PFR: 15.3% | AGG: 22% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 72]
CO ($7.34) [VPIP: 45.2% | PFR: 16.1% | AGG: 31.3% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 31]

Dealt to Hero: 5 A A Q

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Raises To $0.17, HERO Raises To $0.58, SB Raises To $1.96, BB Folds, CO Folds, HERO Raises To $6.10, SB Calls $3.06 (allin)

Flop ($11.34): 5 T T

Turn ($11.34): 5 T T 2

River ($11.34): 5 T T 2 K

Glad you took my post the right way.
Yeah, it's frustrating. Its perfectly normal.
You're a better poker player than me, I'll just throw that out there.
But I'll give you one last piece of advice. Can't help myself.
I think I mentioned this before. Move up to 5/10 asap.
The money doesn't matter for most people in the lowest of lowest stakes.
It's almost like playing play money. Your game Will not improve properly.
Just my observation when I was playing 2/5.
Plo is awesome. If you improve , you'll be playing a game most people playing poker don't have a clue about.
Ok. Go gl. You got this.

This is why I can't play over my BR restrictions. Every single time without fail this is how I run.

72% fav on the flop
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker Tracking Software

NL Holdem $0.10(BB)
HERO ($14.64) [VPIP: 27.9% | PFR: 16.9% | AGG: 31.3% | 3-Bet: 7.5% | Hands: 20628]
SB ($5.36) [VPIP: 42.1% | PFR: 14.9% | AGG: 38% | 3-Bet: 4.2% | Hands: 232]
BB ($10.13) [VPIP: 18.3% | PFR: 14.4% | AGG: 38.3% | 3-Bet: 5.5% | Hands: 481]
UTG ($28.59) [VPIP: 25.9% | PFR: 20.7% | AGG: 46.9% | 3-Bet: 26.3% | Hands: 60]
HJ ($10.15) [VPIP: 27.4% | PFR: 19.7% | AGG: 31.1% | 3-Bet: 10.9% | Hands: 164]
CO ($10.53) [VPIP: 19.8% | PFR: 14.7% | AGG: 12.8% | 3-Bet: 12.5% | Hands: 183]

Dealt to Hero: 4 5

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Folds, HERO Raises To $0.22, SB Calls $0.17, BB Folds

Hero SPR on Flop: [9.52 effective]
Flop ($0.54): 3 6 2
SB Checks, HERO Bets $0.27 (Rem. Stack: 14.15), SB Raises To $0.54 (Rem. Stack: 4.60), HERO Calls $0.27 (Rem. Stack: 13.88)

Turn ($1.62): 3 6 2 Q
SB Bets $1.21 (Rem. Stack: 3.39), HERO Raises To $5.25 (Rem. Stack: 8.63), SB Calls $3.39 (allin)

River ($11.47): 3 6 2 Q 6


SB shows: 3 3

SB wins: $10.28


Flop top 2. I guess I'm supposed to find a fold here but after all the beats I went through I think I just figured I can't be 2nd best again. TILT

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software

NL Holdem $0.10(BB)
UTG ($24.51) [VPIP: 23.7% | PFR: 17.8% | AGG: 50% | 3-Bet: 10.3% | Hands: 141]
HJ ($7.34) [VPIP: 17.7% | PFR: 3.1% | AGG: 26.7% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 100]
CO ($10.85) [VPIP: 20.4% | PFR: 16.9% | AGG: 47.2% | 3-Bet: 2.4% | Hands: 148]
BTN ($10.00) [VPIP: 27.4% | PFR: 19.7% | AGG: 31.1% | 3-Bet: 10.9% | Hands: 164]
SB ($10.05) [VPIP: 19.8% | PFR: 14.7% | AGG: 12.8% | 3-Bet: 12.5% | Hands: 183]
HERO ($13.28) [VPIP: 27.9% | PFR: 16.9% | AGG: 31.3% | 3-Bet: 7.5% | Hands: 20628]

Dealt to Hero: T J

UTG Raises To $0.30, HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Folds, SB Folds, HERO Calls $0.20

Hero SPR on Flop: [19.97 effective]
Flop ($0.65): T J 9
HERO Checks, UTG Bets $0.48 (Rem. Stack: 23.73), HERO Calls $0.48 (Rem. Stack: 12.50)

Turn ($1.61): T J 9 5
HERO Checks, UTG Bets $1.61 (Rem. Stack: 22.12), HERO Calls $1.61 (Rem. Stack: 10.89)

River ($4.83): T J 9 5 4
HERO Checks, UTG Bets $4.83 (Rem. Stack: 17.29), HERO Calls $4.83 (Rem. Stack: 6.06)


UTG shows: K Q

UTG wins: $13.77


To the river as a 88% fav.

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software

NL Holdem $0.10(BB)
UTG ($31.56) [VPIP: 25.1% | PFR: 16.8% | AGG: 30.2% | 3-Bet: 7.4% | Hands: 194]
HJ ($12.16) [VPIP: 18.3% | PFR: 14.4% | AGG: 38.3% | 3-Bet: 5.5% | Hands: 481]
CO ($2.93) [VPIP: 19.7% | PFR: 16.4% | AGG: 26.5% | 3-Bet: 12.3% | Hands: 187]
BTN ($9.91) [VPIP: 43.3% | PFR: 31.1% | AGG: 30.5% | 3-Bet: 4.2% | Hands: 93]
SB ($9.75) [VPIP: 23.1% | PFR: 3.8% | AGG: 23.1% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 26]
HERO ($11.94) [VPIP: 27.9% | PFR: 16.9% | AGG: 31.3% | 3-Bet: 7.5% | Hands: 20628]

Dealt to Hero: A K

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Folds, SB Raises To $0.30, HERO Raises To $0.90, SB Calls $0.60

Hero SPR on Flop: [4.92 effective]
Flop ($1.80): J A 9
SB Checks, HERO Bets $1.35 (Rem. Stack: 9.69), SB Calls $1.35 (Rem. Stack: 7.50)

Turn ($4.50): J A 9 5
SB Checks, HERO Checks

River ($4.50): J A 9 5 Q
SB Bets $3.37 (Rem. Stack: 4.13), HERO Calls $3.37 (Rem. Stack: 6.32)


SB shows: Q A

SB wins: $10.68


14xBB preflop raise called by QJs and QJs is rewarded for the horrible call.

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software

NL Holdem $0.10(BB)
BTN ($8.27) [VPIP: 25.9% | PFR: 14.3% | AGG: 33.9% | 3-Bet: 7.7% | Hands: 114]
SB ($10.30) [VPIP: 18.3% | PFR: 14.4% | AGG: 38.3% | 3-Bet: 5.5% | Hands: 481]
BB ($8.94) [VPIP: 19.1% | PFR: 3.4% | AGG: 27.6% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 90]
UTG ($16.43) [VPIP: 43.3% | PFR: 31.1% | AGG: 30.5% | 3-Bet: 4.2% | Hands: 93]
HJ ($10.15) [VPIP: 30.9% | PFR: 22.1% | AGG: 56.3% | 3-Bet: 3.2% | Hands: 68]
HERO ($21.60) [VPIP: 27.9% | PFR: 16.9% | AGG: 31.3% | 3-Bet: 7.5% | Hands: 20628]

Dealt to Hero: K K

UTG Raises To $0.30, HJ Calls $0.30, HERO Raises To $1.20, BTN Folds, SB Folds, BB Folds, UTG Calls $0.90, HJ Folds

Hero SPR on Flop: [5.34 effective]
Flop ($2.85): J 9 A
UTG Checks, HERO Checks

Turn ($2.85): J 9 A 9
UTG Bets $1.42 (Rem. Stack: 13.81), HERO Calls $1.42 (Rem. Stack: 18.98)

River ($5.69): J 9 A 9 J
UTG Checks, HERO Checks


UTG shows: J Q

UTG wins: $5.41



It never fails. Hold Em, PLO it just doesn't matter. I am guaranteed to get 2nd best hand and coolered constantly. You can set your watch to it.

Our EV BB/100 was 41. Finished at -11bb/100. Rode the variance wave all day but finished +$10. Moved up in stakes to .10/.25 for 100 hands to see if I could make up what I lost and it ended up working out. Felt like I had to take the risk. Sat down at a full ring game and nitted it up with a couple of whales at the table.

Cashed a PLO MTT and 7stud MTT and ended the night with the crushed 25nl NLHE.

Played step 6 of the Venom ladder and had the donkiest fishiest run out take us from chip leader to 4th and eventually out. Climbing the ladder again. Up to step 4.

Only got in a total of 133 hands of 25nl but it paid off. Ran a little under EV and still finished with a winrate of 166bb/100.

25nl players actually seemed worse than the 10nl players as strange as that sounds. They bluff catch like crazy.

Loz, you're so focused on how other people play and how bad they are. You want them to make mistakes and play bad. You win that 88%'er...88% of the time, they still get to win 12%. Focus on improving and playing well. Let the other stuff work itself out. Most importantly, don't go into a session with a defeatist attitude.

Thanks for the input everyone itt and via pm. I definitely have a “competition” type mental game leak. I need to think in terms of profit as opposed to winning and losing. I think the winning and losing mindset is what makes fish, fish and makes me fishy when I sit down and am locked in to “winning” mode.

I’m mixing it up between ring, tourneys, PLO and NLHE. Had a sick 400 Hand session last night 3 tabling (2 NLHE and 1 PLO) at tables that all had a whale and/or maniac on them. Finished at 104bb/100. Had the Jesus seat next to one juicy fish that was on a heater and had a 300+BB stack. He had to reload once I sat down next to him about 50 or so hands in. He was a very big part of my winrate last night. I’m making an effort to wait on the right tables rather than taking the first table available.

Last night I was experimenting with unconventional bet sizing as well. There’s value in breaking from the norms vs certain player types.

My next goal is to start making an effort to Tag players more often. I like Blackrain79s 6 player types to classify players. It’s simple and pretty much covers probably 90% of the players I expect to run in to. Nit, TagFish, Good Tag, Good LAG, maniac, whales (weak tights, weak loose, calling stations etc).

The journey continues.

Just an update since I haven’t updated in a while. Been playing a lot of tourneys. Mostly Venom ladders. Always start at step 1 for $0.25 and have made it to 6 once and was the chip leader and had AKdd vs As7h and flopped top 2.

Got the money in with someone I had covered and the board ran out giving villain a 7 high flush. Was out a couple hands later.

Then been back to 4 twice. Right now I’m at step 3. I’m getting in that tourney.

Earlier today played a $2 buy in for a $11 ticket and cashed. Bought in to the $7,000 guarantee. 754 entrants. Finished 37th and cashed for $38.

5 hours of play and I was in 17th place and was playing phenomenal. Decided to bluff catch in a blind vs blind situation and was wrong. Pretty much took a leg out from under me. Posting the hand below with the explanation.

Was definitely one of the only boneheaded plays I made the whole tourney but I decided to trust my read and was wrong. I can live with that but am still disappointed.

Current Micro tourney (MTT and SnG) stats including satellites.

ITM: 29%
ROI: 111.14%
Winnings : $764.29

Here we go. Boneheaded play of the night.

I had notes on villain. Don't remember when I made them but the note said "Triple barreled bottom pair as a bluff". He didn't seem aggressive and maybe he thought his hand was good in that situation. I don't know. I don't have a lot of hands on villain but I think the note was from a previous tournament. I'm an obsessive note taker. Anything I pick up on I note it (bet sizing, bet timing, etc).

With JJ on the board it made it less likely to have a J in his hand. Most of the Js in his range I would of expected him to raise preflop as well (AJ, KJ, QJ, JTs, J9s, J8s)

We were in a blind vs blind situation where he limped. Calling down was the wrong play in hindsight and looks pretty fishy now that I'm looking at it again but I decided to trust my read on the situation and my notes. I feel I am pretty good at making decisions overall when I have some kind of history with someone but I'm not going to be right every time. This one goes in the wrong file.

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software

NL Holdem $2500.00(BB)
CO ($124233.00) [VPIP: 38.6% | PFR: 21.1% | AGG: 30.8% | 3-Bet: 9.5% | Hands: 57]
BTN ($37800.00) [VPIP: 18.6% | PFR: 11.3% | AGG: 19.2% | 3-Bet: 2.6% | Hands: 99]
SB ($70462.00) [VPIP: 28.2% | PFR: 17.9% | AGG: 17.8% | 3-Bet: 8.6% | Hands: 79]
HERO ($63159.00) [VPIP: 24.3% | PFR: 19.7% | AGG: 36.8% | 3-Bet: 7.3% | Hands: 25998]
UTG ($46778.00) [VPIP: 9.5% | PFR: 9.5% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 21]
MP ($119851.00) [VPIP: 34.6% | PFR: 25% | AGG: 11.5% | 3-Bet: 16.7% | Hands: 54]
HJ ($102557.00) [VPIP: 20.5% | PFR: 18.2% | AGG: 27.8% | 3-Bet: 7.1% | Hands: 44]

Dealt to Hero: 7 9

UTG Folds, MP Folds, HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Folds, SB Calls $1250, HERO Checks

Hero SPR on Flop: [8.5 effective]
Flop ($7100.00): 6 7 J
SB Bets $3550 (Rem. Stack: 64112.00), HERO Calls $3550 (Rem. Stack: 56809.00)

Turn ($14200.00): 6 7 J J
SB Bets $6262 (Rem. Stack: 57850.00), HERO Calls $6262 (Rem. Stack: 50547.00)

River ($26724.00): 6 7 J J 9
SB Bets $11102 (Rem. Stack: 46748.00), HERO Calls $11102 (Rem. Stack: 39445.00)


SB shows: K J

SB wins: $48928.00

Poker just sucks sometimes. Mega agro fish. Trying so hard to give his stack away.

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software

NL Holdem $80.00(BB)
MP2 ($3481.00)HJ ($3995.00)
CO ($10428.00)
BTN ($5854.00)

SB ($9896.00) [VPIP: 81.8% | PFR: 36.4% | AGG: 58.8% | 3-Bet: 33.3% | Hands: 11]
HERO ($9750.00)
UTG ($6926.00)

Dealt to Hero: A 3

UTG Calls $80, EP Folds, MP1 Folds, MP2 Folds, HJ Folds, CO Calls $80, BTN Calls $80, SB Calls $40, HERO Checks

Hero SPR on Flop: [11.76 effective]
Flop ($490.00): A 2 5
SB Bets $320 (Rem. Stack: 9486.00), HERO Calls $320 (Rem. Stack: 9340.00), UTG Folds, CO Folds, BTN Calls $320 (Rem. Stack: 5444.00)

Turn ($1450.00): A 2 5 5
SB Bets $9486 (allin), HERO Calls $9340 (allin), BTN Folds

River ($20276.00): A 2 5 5 9


SB shows: K 3

SB wins: $20130.00

Can't even reenter the tourney because I'm so tilted there's no way I'll play optimally. That's ****ing insane.

Those outcomes are brutal, man.
LG I stoped trying to give hand advice months ago. I'm no pro and I hardly play any tournaments anymore. So, I'm not going to tell you how you should have played the hand or what the optimal play is. I don't know.
But here's how I would have probably played the hand.

Raise a significant amount on flop to realize fold equity by applying max pressure. Don't just call. You floped a monster for that hand.

I don't know what I would have done in the moment, it's easier said than done. I would have folds the turn to an all in shove on a paired board.
Maybe folding turn is bad play but that's what I would have done.

In that situation villain was too aggressive to chase out of the pot. He tripled barreled everything and everyone was folding to him. When I got to that table I have like 3500 chips and he had 17,000+. He was the primary reason I had that stack. His shove on the turn was a fist pump call.

I made the mistake of taking control of the betting vs him and having him fold out his junk. The passive line is usually the wrong line but against a maniac, especially an 81/36 it's better to let them build the pot. Just really really sucks when they realize their 20% equity. lol

I was steaming about that for about 15 minutes then I got back in the tourney. Ended up cashing in the second level (from the button) so it was slightly more than a min cash. Considering I bought in twice it was a losing cash counting both buy ins.

**** happens. Players like that are gifts from the Poker Gods. Have to take the good with the bad. 4 out of 5 times he sets me up for s deep run there.

You're right bro. Most times your line extracts max value.
That's poker as they say.

Doesn't mean it took an insane amount of discipline to not send my fist through the laptop screen. lol

Your thread began interesting - now its just a bad beat story with a crying poster.
Stop crying or stop poker - if you cannot handle those hands you will never become a winner.

At some point, you will run worse than you ever imagined was possible. Then when you think it's over, you'll probably run even worse at some point. Standard.

Good luck, following your journey.

If I couldn’t handle it I would quit. I ***** about it here then go back to playing. The bad beats are coming a lot. I know it’s part of it. Just doing what works for me to get past it and get on with the game. I was talking to someone with two million hands played and he showed me a graph with a run bad that lasted over an almost 100,000 hand sample. So if it helps me get over and get back to playing again without tilt affecting me as much I’m probably going to post it.

I appreciate anything in your comment that was a critique though. Will take your comment in to consideration. Try not to use the thread as a crying platform. I could appreciate no one wants to read that.

Ok so I just bubbled a tourney and it wasn’t a bad beat. It was horrible play. We were on the bubble and this one player who was on the BU when I was BB kept wanting to splash around. It irritated me because we were less than 7 from cashing and it was a satellite and everyone was in. So he min raised I called, I hit middle pair and shipped it and he had top pair.

Of course I felt stupid and I realized my biggest problem at the poker table. I make a lot of ego based emotional decisions. That’s why I have such a hard time dealing with bad beats. It really effects my ego when I play correctly or someone plays incorrectly and ends up winning the pot. I feel like the “bad” player should not win. In the above case I was the bad player but I’m talking about the obsession with bad beats.

So my number one primary goal right now and there’s no time limit on it is to try and plug this leak. I’m literally going to ask myself is this an ego based decision every time before I push a button. Even when I’m not tilted and everything seems fine. Im gonna make it a habit. Im writing it in sharpie on my laptop.

This is probably a no brainer for some people but it’s a big deal for me. It’s my BIGGEST leak and it isn’t even close. I would be a significantly better poker player if I didn’t let ego affect my decisions. I can do all the math, I get better everyday at exploiting tendencies, I have to focus on the most profitable decision.

Thanks to everyone still reading and hanging in there. Better stuff is coming. This is my journey to being a good poker player and hopefully I’m smart enough to see the lesson in everything. I hope I help someone else get better along the way as well.

It's good to recognize the importance of having a solid mental game. There is a principle in stoicism which I love for situations like these, and it's something like don't judge the action of others on the basis of your values(/goals). What you want from poker is profitability, you want to make money from it. If the player you are playing had the same goal you could call out his bad play (wouldnt do you any good though), but when the villain in a particular hands goal is excitement/the thrill, then the only way he makes a mistake is if he is drawing dead because he would get none of the values he seeks

I played on WSOP tonight and there’s no HUD use which sucks because I can’t post hand histories.

I started forcing myself to count to 5 before acting tonight. 100% of the time no exceptions. Even when the bad beats happened, even when a player played a funky hand (J5o in SB calling a 4x MP raise on a JJxx5 board vs KJs) and stacked me, even when I had the stone cold nuts, my decisions were 1000 times better taking that 5 second pause before acting.

Any way, I played 673 hands and won 509bbs over 3 tables. I was playing PLO and NLHE. Taking that time to focus on decisions and situations I played way better than I typically do. I was able to focus on my exploits which I think is my strongest suit as far as poker goes. I feel I’m very good at knowing which players to isolate and how thin to value bet some and make big folds to others. Most of my decisions were money tonight. Not perfect but better than they’ve been lately for sure.

Granted I think the competition is much softer on WSOP than ACR, and it is also less bot infested as well, but I was able to take advantage of it.

I highly suggest for anyone who has identified a leak of theirs to write something right on your laptop where you’ll see it before every action that will remind you to not act out on that leak. It works.

Hopefully no one seeing this sees the hand analysis I asked for in the MTT forum because this post has the result. My thinking during the hand is posted in the MTT thread. I play 100% exploitative. I think I said it previously ITT but I got my first HUD about 4 months ago and I have been obsessed with learning how to use it to my advantage. I've made some big lay downs and hero calls totally based on my HUD reads.

This hand here, it's not a huge deal but it was a big deal for me to make this call because I made the call using a few different stats.

I used:
VPIP
3bet
AF
and Donk bet stats to determine my action in the hand and I was right.

I also think this hand was a big turning point in the tourney for me. The tourney result will be in the next post because I'm posting this hand using my laptop but it's easier to post pics from my cell.

So here is the hand.

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker Tracking Software

NL Holdem $5000(BB)
CO ($124282)
HERO ($173110)
SB ($60107)
BB ($296589) [VPIP: 47.8% | PFR: 23.2% | AGG: 52.5% | 3-Bet: 3.4% | Hands: 71]
HJ ($246916)

Dealt to Hero: 7 A

HJ Folds, CO Folds, HERO Raises To $12750, SB Folds, BB Calls $7000

Hero SPR on Flop: [5.3 effective]
Flop ($30250): 6 5 5
BB Bets $15125 (Rem. Stack: 268714), HERO Calls $15125 (Rem. Stack: 145235)

Turn ($60500): 6 5 5 2
BB Bets $15125 (Rem. Stack: 253589), HERO Calls $15125 (Rem. Stack: 130110)

River ($90750): 6 5 5 2 2
BB Bets $22688 (Rem. Stack: 230901), HERO Calls $22688 (Rem. Stack: 107422)