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Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro!

06-16-2013 , 03:01 PM
Results to date and hands

4/8 Limit O8, 0:10, +$34
1/3 NLHE, 0:35, +$38
2/5 NLHE, 4:05, +$1373
5/T HO, 1:00, +$1056


350 minutes, +$2501, 68.1 bb /hr

So I failed to reach 8 hours for the week. I think endurance will come with more and more sessions. For now, I am quitting when I drop to what I feel is my C game (autopilot). When I was doing this more for recreation I would put in long, tired sessions. But now I care about profit more than anything, so I am going to remain disciplined.

Obviously things are running well so far - the heater actually started before the PC&G thread, so I am thrilled it has continued for the thread.

Hands
1/3 NLHE $300 cap buy in.
I am BB with 77. UTG limps, EP limps, MP - tight ABC older player - makes it $20, folds around to me, I call, limpers fold.

Heads up to the flop. Range for Villain based on preflop action is pure premiums (JJ+ and AK, maybe some AQs). Effective stacks are $300 so we are deep enough for me to set mine -or- make a play against an ABC player.... Wait? How could you count on stacks AND count on getting folds??... Well, it is all about board texture and bet sizing. It is much easier in position, but I can do it against this ABC guy OOP too. Villain will have bet sizing tells and/or any check behind will indicate the pot is mine for the taking.

Flop JJ7 rainbow - Bam!... kind of.. I am going to win this hand for sure, but I will have to be creative to get stacks out of an overpair because of the JJx. This is one of those textures I could actually steal the pot from an overpair (if I didn't happen to have 77). So we can't easily have it both ways - stacks and folds... A lot is going to depend on his flop action on how much value I can extract.

I check, villain checks behind.

Turn is Q
JJ7Q with two clubs now.

Now I could try to eek value out of villain here, but I went a different route. I am going to try look bluffy and get a hero call. Villain also is less likely to have QQ/KK/AA here.. he would have made a small/cautious bet OTF with the overpair. He is down to JJ / AK / AQs. The Q is a good card to keep those losing hands interested with these backdoor draws or AQ.

Pot is ~$45... I lead out on the turn for $80. A huge overbet. I have been very aggressive at the table in the short session, so I have the image to make this play expecting a call if he has ANY interest in the pot.

He calls Please please deliver a T/K/A or club on the river.. please...

River... off suit 4... meh.

So now we have $200 left and the pot is just over $200. This guy is never bluffing and never hero calling A-high with those missed back door draws. I am not getting another penny out of that part of his range (remember this is villain dependent advice, not general).

So one thing I preach... concentrate on the part of the range that matters to the result. That means mainly AQ and some very very discounted PPs from villain. $50 certainly gets called here... but he believed his hand was good enough to call a 2X PSB OTT... let him bluff catch again.

I shove for $200 effective.... he snap folds. Probably a missed back door draw that I got $80 of value out of OTT and he was drawing dead (the 7 was the other club, so no royal outs)

Hand 2:
bip! meets old bip!.. AKA - aggro donk FPS

One type of player I understand better than any other type... is aggro donks, because I used to be one. The main sign of aggro donks are:

- Going wild when shown weakness, even if donk's line makes zero sense.
- Imagining everyone is playing back at them (90% don't, they just nut peddle)
- >50% VPIP
- A lot of "see where I am at" bets
- Defaulting to "bet big" when confused. You see them make huge bets that can only be called by better and fold out everything worse.. i.e. shoving river for 2X pot on A98A2 board while holding A7... into the pre-flop raiser.. umm..? Once in a blue moon you fold a chop or get Ax better kicker out... but not often with your aggro rep. Aggro-donk would be better betting for value here and folding to a shove.

The hand starts with a mistake by me:
2/5 $500 effective
J7 OTB. Nits in the blinds. A couple of middle position limps from weak players, I raise to $30 OTB to take advantage of limp-call-check-fold... but, oops, I did not even notice that aggro-donk in EP had limped too

Blinds fold, Aggro donk calls, and my intended targets fold. Let's brace for some high variance poker!

Flop is QQ6

This is the kind of flop aggro donks will invest hundreds in just because "they didn't put you on a Q". I wish I had a Q here.. but I have J7o..

Villain checks. I am still going to cbet here in the hopes aggro-donk makes an out of character fold on a paired board. I bet $35 into ~$75 pot. Probably a bad bet size, that is like blood in the water to villain aggro.

Villain calls. Hmmm... very polarized now. It is a Q or air he believes can catch up (back door draws, over card, etc). Aggro-donk would check-raise every small PP.. to see where he is at/protection/etc. Bluffing is the fun for them, so they will turn almost everything into a bluff except the Q.

Turn:
QQ6J

Sweet! I may get bailed out here.

Villain leads for $45 into $145 pot...still a wtf line It pretty much preserves his same range - air/back door draws -or- a Q.

I call.

River is:
QQ6JK

Not my favorite card, as so many limp-call back door draws now counterfeited my bluff catcher.

Villain stares at me, for some reason I wink, and then he adds $50 to the $100 he already cut out, and bets $150...

I tanked for 2 minutes.... $150 to call into $385.. I don't have to be right very often, so I call. I debated raising, but he still has Q in his range. He is very polarized in my opinion, so I just call.

Villain rolls over K2

****!

He thought he was bluffing OTR.. again, the big mistake they make repeatedly. He is not range merging (before anyone suggests this), the guy is a fish, he just turned his miracle river card into a bluff. Not that I put much value in table talk, but he said "I thought you had a Q" after I mucked. Sooo... this is the definition of a bet that gets called by a lot that is better and very little that is worse. Results-wise, it doesn't look that way. And results wise - a raise by me would have worked OTR, but that is also a bad play in the long run.
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-16-2013 , 03:30 PM
good stuff, keep it up!

i'd guess that 9 out of 10 times your opponents are not c/r bluffing whiffed draws otr at these stakes, so i think you can confidently fold KJ there and not shove over the top expecting a fold.
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-16-2013 , 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fogodchao
good stuff, keep it up!

i'd guess that 9 out of 10 times your opponents are not c/r bluffing whiffed draws otr at these stakes, so i think you can confidently fold KJ there and not shove over the top expecting a fold.
Thx!

(and agreed that I leveled myself in that hand)
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-16-2013 , 04:12 PM
Just read the thread. Loving the write-ups. Some strong analysis here. Subbed! GL!
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-16-2013 , 09:17 PM
Loving the HH's sir. Keep it up!
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-16-2013 , 09:31 PM
jesus christ that J7os hand is bad
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-16-2013 , 09:35 PM
Subbed
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-17-2013 , 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DecisionMade
Just read the thread. Loving the write-ups. Some strong analysis here. Subbed! GL!
Ty and welcome to the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheySuited
Loving the HH's sir. Keep it up!
Spew guaranteed every write up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 11t
jesus christ that J7os hand is bad
.. for those unfamiliar - 11t is like my frienemy from the chat thread. 11t wants to open the thread to a new post and read.. "-$1000 this session... shoved all in preflop with 32o, got snapped call in 4 places by AA, AA, KK, and 43o. 43o announced before calling that he knew he had me dominated so he had to call."

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourDeuce
Subbed
Welcome to the thread

I'll give you guys one more hand:

2/5
I am CO with KJ (~$1300)

EP V1 limps (action action player, ~$650)
MP V2 limps (ABC player, ~$400)
MP V3 limps (tightest/most passive man on the planet.. ~$450)
I raise to $30, BTN & blinds fold, all villains call

Flop KQ9
Pot $123

Checks to me... I.... check.. IMO this is a horrible flop to cbet even though I hit top pair. Bascally, nothing worse is calling and I just open myself to getting blasted off my equity (gutshot draw, another K, etc). I will know much more by the turn as to where I stand. I am primarily doing it for pot control though. This is not a stack off spot OTF with 4 players in.

Turn is a blank
KQ97

V1 checks, V2 checks, V3 bets $30...

This is the TMPPOTP (tighest most passive player on the planet), so I am not necessarily sure where I stand against him, but great chance my KJ is behind his range (2 pair, AK, etc... yes he will limp/call AK). Also, if I raise him, nothing worse is calling - I would be bluffing.

I call $30

V1 raises to $330.. wtf?!
V2 snap folds
V3 snap folds

... I... did not take the proper time here and folded after thinking for 5 seconds.

More about V1. Hands I have seen from him:
Bet flop, bet/3bet all in OTT on J875 board.. he did that right into the nuts 9T. Claimed he had 2 pair.

Overbet flop, overbet shove turn on 9634 with 99.. right into a flopped Q high flush on a 7 way limped pot. (He limped 99 in LP)

Some other hand where he overbet bluffed the flop with check-raise against a tight player.

He has not seen much from me yet.

So basically, this guy has serious FPS, bluff tendencies, and makes bets that can only be called by better. He has shown great hurry in protecting (the 99) what he feels are strong yet vulnerable hands.

Bolded is the most important part I overlooked when mucking. This enormous overbet OTT is never a strong hand like a set or T9. He would not wait to spring those bets. Also, I don't think it is a combo spade draw (as he would have led OTT after flop checked around). Now on the flop, certainly he was expecting a c-bet from me, so I don't weight too much into his flop check when ranging him.

The problem is that I didn't bother to range OTT, I just saw $300 raise and thought "another time". I had decided OTF that I couldn't wait for this hand to be over since I had such dominated cards. This villain has air (think of how weak we have all shown OTT, especially me), he has naked flush draws, and he may have weak 2 pair hands. But more than anything, he has air ball bluffs here.

Fold is not bad... and 99.9% of people are folding in my spot. But the proper play would have been to shove. Pot is $213 plus his $300 extra = $513. He has $290 behind. I would be invested $590 to win $513. You could debate just call-call from me (turn-river), but the problem is that he has equity with a wide range here and I could end up paying off a bluff that catches on the river (spades, J, A, who knows..?)

What the shove accomplishes, is it commits the draw part of his range (naked spades), pair+straight, etc... the part I am actually ahead of and can value bet. It folds out complete air, which is fine. It also may fold out something like 97 - the line he takes protecting "overvalued" hands. Maybe, maybe it folds those weak 2-pair. I don't know what he would give me credit for. I have seen him push the action, I have not seen how he reacts calling to a BS line from me.

If called by a weak 2-pair, I also have 9 outs (K,J,T)

Anyways, I don't really regret this spot, but he is in the game a lot, and I will be ready next time.

Last edited by bip!; 06-17-2013 at 10:35 AM.
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-17-2013 , 11:23 AM
Bip!, I'm confused. Did you quit a career for this endeavor?

Don't want you to reveal personal detail obv but if you quit a stable income for poker I'd like to hear your thought process + what led up to the decision.

Thnx!
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-17-2013 , 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia
Bip!, I'm confused. Did you quit a career for this endeavor?

Don't want you to reveal personal detail obv but if you quit a stable income for poker I'd like to hear your thought process + what led up to the decision.

Thnx!
No, I have a full time job. Turning semi-pro.. it is not a decision to be taken lightly

The only difference now and before is that I will be playing more regularly. I am committing to 2 sessions per week with an 8 hour / week goal.

..so yeah, the line is a little blurry as to what was rec-player and now is semi-pro.. but damn it, semi-pro sounds so ****ing cool.
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-17-2013 , 12:21 PM
what is your work/home schedule like?

it shouldn't be that difficult to hit an 8/hr a week goal. if you play on one weekend day then you can easily play 6 hours easy that day and still have time for other commitments
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-17-2013 , 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamicheats
what is your work/home schedule like?

it shouldn't be that difficult to hit an 8/hr a week goal. if you play on one weekend day then you can easily play 6 hours easy that day and still have time for other commitments
I have a lot of obligations... best way to describe it. I have found 8 hours is actually quite tough for me personally.
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-17-2013 , 11:27 PM
Tonight I am reading Harrington on Cash. I had started about a few months ago.. got distracted... and never finished.

Study goal: Finish book 1 this week
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-18-2013 , 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bip!
Tonight I am reading Harrington on Cash. I had started about a few months ago.. got distracted... and never finished.

Study goal: Finish book 1 this week
Why? I have never read this one, but from what I heard about it I would assume you are way beyond this.
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-18-2013 , 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bip!
Wait? How could you count on stacks AND count on getting folds??
My nutpeddling style of play is currently having a hard time wrapping my head around this conflicting concept. For the most part, I think my style is just way too straightforward and non-bluffy, and yet last session out I made two bluffs that ended up working, but at the same time I feel they may have just been total lucky spew (especially if my plan was to get paid off if I did happen to have what I was representing in both cases).

I'm still having trouble with these conflicting ideas, tbh. I'm actually thinking the optimal approach to my game is to never bluff again (apart from a typical iso-light / cbet flop HU).

FWIW, I think I would have just donked the fullhouse on the flop and hoped for the best, cuz no villain is ever expecting us to donk a J+ there.

GplanA:valuebemynuts;planB:bluffmyair;isthisreally agoodplan?G
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-18-2013 , 03:41 PM
GL subbed...let's get some Omahahahahahaha hands ITT
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-18-2013 , 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcePlayerDeluxe
Why? I have never read this one, but from what I heard about it I would assume you are way beyond this.
I'm flattered, ty - but I am not so certain there isn't material in that poker book for me to learn. Well, that..and I busted my roll on Bovada so I have to fill night time somehow

Even just reading confirmation of concepts helps confidence.

Well, and admittedly, a big part of my interest in that book is this guy below...GG

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
My nutpeddling style of play is currently having a hard time wrapping my head around this conflicting concept. For the most part, I think my style is just way too straightforward and non-bluffy, and yet last session out I made two bluffs that ended up working, but at the same time I feel they may have just been total lucky spew (especially if my plan was to get paid off if I did happen to have what I was representing in both cases).

I'm still having trouble with these conflicting ideas, tbh. I'm actually thinking the optimal approach to my game is to never bluff again (apart from a typical iso-light / cbet flop HU).

FWIW, I think I would have just donked the fullhouse on the flop and hoped for the best, cuz no villain is ever expecting us to donk a J+ there.

GplanA:valuebemynuts;planB:bluffmyair;isthisreally agoodplan?G
I donk that against most villains and did debate live in that hand. Against any villain who is not so scared, that is the best way to get stacks. However, this guy is pretty straightforward and would fold overcards to a donk bet regardless of flop. With an overpair though, I felt I still had time to get stacks in if I just put him to ONE AND NO MORE THAN ONE TOUGH DECISION... meaning I would shove river. I could afford to skip one street. If I were bluffing, I would want to put him to two tough decisions... i.e. a check raise and a shove or similar "donk-shove".

Like you pointed out - it is really hard to plan a bluff and plan value in such spots. And I definitely don't always get it right. But I felt my best average value in this case was to open with a check.
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-18-2013 , 04:25 PM
Thoughts on bluff line / value line for discussion with GG:

A loose passive call station doesn't need to be bluffed.

An unaware scared money player needs to be bluffed and you want value lines separate from bluff lines. In a simplified sense, bet every time you miss and rope them in whenever you hit. This is horrible poker against other player types, but necessary against scared money.

An over aggro can be bluffed but it is often unnecessary and very high variance.

HOWEVER,

Against any decent villain in which you will need to incorporate bluffs into your game (a thinking competent player) - the bluff lines need to match the value lines. the reason being is you are trying to recover the value you are losing when they make good folds. So any line where he finds a good fold, you need to put some amount of bluffs in there.. to the point you become indifferent whether he calls or not. That balance is tough to find. This is also where I will often decide to show or never show hands depending on how I need to shift his perception of my balance.

I WILL NEVER SHOW THE BLUFF to scared money though... only to competent players that I want to get my value back from.
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-18-2013 , 04:32 PM
Nice input in the LLSNL thread ... GL!
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-18-2013 , 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69
GL subbed...let's get some Omahahahahahaha hands ITT
Welcome to the thread bwslim! I cross-subbed to yours. I see you are a pretty accomplished Omaha player - so indeed! I will start posting hands as long as you promise to teach me
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-18-2013 , 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bip!
Welcome to the thread bwslim! I cross-subbed to yours. I see you are a pretty accomplished Omaha player - so indeed! I will start posting hands as long as you promise to teach me
Sounds good...will look for some good hands and post some of mine as well!
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-18-2013 , 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bip!


Flop T34 - He checks, I bet $40, he calls... from what I observed so far, this villain would have check raised all pocket-pairs including ones that made sets. So after his call he can't have anything too strong, and his range is a lot of draws or connectors that hit a pair. I am planning to triple barrel all blank run-outs.
Turn T343- I like this card. Against my apparent range, an overpair, any Tx hand (T9 etc) has counterfeited 2 pair "outs" and villain will be aware of that. He checks, I bet $70, he calls... So with his range in my mind being weak Tx / 65s / XcYc I plan on this bet folding Tx hands or setting them up for a tough river call (villain has shown a fold button), and if he is on the flush draw, I am also building a pot to steal on the river.

River - He checks... I lose at showdown to whiffed A-high flush draw and I still may need to shake Tx hands out.. so I am not going check behind. I bet $150 into $270 pot (villain doesn't track pot size, so the bet looks huge).. villain thinks... and min-raises to $300... weird - this line is unlike anything villain has shown me, so I drop the Tx from his range and I decide he is bluffing missed flush draws.. which I can't just call because I only have K high. At this point the pot is $720 and I have ~$265 left... so I shove leaving him on the spot to call a 3bet river. Even though it is only $115 more to him... he has a lot of chips left (so discount the frustrated last $115 throw in) and will lay down almost all weak holdings here.

He thinks for just a bit and calls. He waits for me to show KJo and then rolls over A3o for trip 3s

.. It looks horrible if you just look at this hand in a vacuum. However, if there is one thing I can try to promote - have confidence in your ranges on villain and be willing to go to end with that range. What happened here is I assigned too tight a range to villain. I never though he would play a rag offsuit A for a limp call preflop. I thought all 3x hands (like A3) would fold flop. The fact that the flop 3 was a club thus discounted any trip 3s from his range for me. Now if the turn had been another 4, then I could have given him credit for a club combo draw 4cXc and maybe slowed down.

So what do you do in these cases? Well realize
1) My table image is set as a bluffing maniac now
2) Adjust my reads on villain
3) realize villain adjusted to me prior to this hand. My frequent c-bets and aggression preflop led to a change in his play. Note that this villain will adjust to how you are running/playing for the future
.


So now... let me show you the good side of going to the end with a range.

Collection with interest

So about an orbit later I have rebought and am up to ~$700, I pick up KK in the CO. Folds to the same villain in MP, who makes it $20, one caller in between, I make it $80. I am a frequent 3 bettor and also my image has been established as maniac.. so I know this is getting called. Villain calls $80 after debating "I should put you all in now"...etc. Caller in between folds. Now, Villain's range is AK and QQ-TT... and I am certain of this. He would 4bet AA and KK against me. I also put some weight in his little speech... he is one that is there to show off - too much ego. So he is not speaking for deception, he is speaking the truth here. He had an urge to shove, meaning a good PP, but not good enough.

Flop T94 rainbow.. beautiful

He checks, I bet $110 into a $185 pot. Now he will give up with all AK at this point or check-raise it (which I will call). He calls... perfect. His range is:
QQ (6)
JJ(6)
TT(3)

Turn card is an A... now this is where most people who do not take a range to the end will miss huge value. He has not a single A in his range - nothing has changed and Villain is in call down mode.

I bet $170 into $405 pot... he calls (he is adjusting to my play by calling me down with decent hands based on history)

River is a 2, perfect blank. Pot is $745 now and I have $340 left. He checks and almost all of the 2/5 table would check behind here "because of that A"... not me.. I take a range to the end. He has QQ or JJ and that is it here. TT would have always led OTR (but I would call river always just in case he switches his mind to rep the A).
This is some of the best poker writing ever. Range. Range. Range.
Sub'ed (is that really a thing? I just sub manually )
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-19-2013 , 07:35 PM
On dinner break at 5T right now . Hope to get 4 hours tonight.
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-19-2013 , 07:37 PM
A real semi pro would get in more hours.
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote
06-20-2013 , 12:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by D0UGHBOY
A real semi pro would get in more hours.
Confirmed almost semi

Only got 2:40 of play in tonight... uggh... even tried to battle through D game at the end for last ~30 minutes, realized A game wasn't coming back and racked up. "D" game is when I stop pushing position and just start hoping to nail a flop. "A" game is when the flop cards are my partner in crime... intimidating a witness (Villain)

Tonight's results - heater continues! Flint Tropics are working towards the NBA

5/T NLHE $2k cap, 1:50, +$1470
2/5 NLHE $1k cap, 0:50, -$80

Results to Date:
4/8 Limit O8, 0:10, +$34
1/3 NLHE, 0:35, +$38
2/5 NLHE, 4:55, +$1293
5/T HO, 1:00, +$1056
5/T NLHE, 1:50, +$1470


510 minutes (8.5 hours), +$3891, 62.1 bb /hr


350 minutes, +$2501, 68.1 bb /hr

I will post a few hands that I misplayed...
Flint Tropics style.. I am going semi-pro! Quote

      
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