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08-03-2018 , 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by fityfmi
If you want to be helped, do as I say.

Go to https://www.pokerstrategy.com/poker-...quilab-holdem/ and download equilab.

Assume you are playing at a 6max table. Use the software to sketch what you think you should be openraising from UTG, HJ, CO, BTN. If you are thinking something along the lines of "well, that depends on the table", throw that thought out the window. What you are sketching is your default play. Take pictures of the 4 opening ranges and post them in the thread.

I'll get back to you when you have posted.
Couldn't I just list my ranges here?

UTG: 99+, AJs+, AKo, AQo and AJo (though I am starting to rethink these last two) and KQs

CO & HJ: add in lower PP. maybe 55 or 66+, suited broadway cards, KQo,

Button: Suited Ax, Kx Qx and Jx, 22+, suited connectors. Sometimes.... I don't always loosen up this much, but when I do these are the ranges I add. But this is not a perfect representation. Sometimes, I will add this button hands to the CO and HJ positions if I am feeling froggy. Other times, I'll just play tight from every position. I try to balance my range somewhat. But really it has more to do with how I feel, if I am running hot and feeling good I'll open up (which tends to work well for me) but if I am running bad I sort of go into autopilot and juts play the premiums.
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08-03-2018 , 10:16 AM
after 10 years of playing, maybe read some training material for total beginners, these ranges are ridicolously tight, not loose as you might think.

you're opening 11% of hands from the cutoff, for reference, that should be around 25-30% for a solid player, more that twice combinations than you play.

even 10+ years old books could help you a lot improving, let alone some serious training sites.
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08-03-2018 , 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by OutlawLuck
Couldn't I just list my ranges here?

UTG: 99+, AJs+, AKo, AQo and AJo (though I am starting to rethink these last two) and KQs

CO & HJ: add in lower PP. maybe 55 or 66+, suited broadway cards, KQo,

Button: Suited Ax, Kx Qx and Jx, 22+, suited connectors. Sometimes.... I don't always loosen up this much, but when I do these are the ranges I add. But this is not a perfect representation. Sometimes, I will add this button hands to the CO and HJ positions if I am feeling froggy. Other times, I'll just play tight from every position. I try to balance my range somewhat. But really it has more to do with how I feel, if I am running hot and feeling good I'll open up (which tends to work well for me) but if I am running bad I sort of go into autopilot and juts play the premiums.
You aren't losing money because you ran AQ into AK on an Ace high board, and couldn't get away from it. Those hands you are supposed to lose a lot in. The reason you are losing is because you are bleeding away a little money here, and a little money there. If you are this far off on something as basic as opening ranges after 10 years, I would probably follow the advice of many others in the thread - stop playing. If you absolutely want to continue, subscribe to the upswing lab or something like that. Should give you a decent introduction to basic stuff.
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08-03-2018 , 10:39 AM
You are not playing ‘too tricky for the micros’ you are , I’m sorry to say, playing too poorly to ever beat the games at all.

The 99 the only street played correctly is pre flop and all your thought processes show is that you haven’t learnt anything in 10 years, bad habits are hard to break out of and I would recommend starting from scratch , read some beginner material.
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08-03-2018 , 10:41 AM
Right, basically start over and consider everything you know about the game invalid.

In case you're not trolling, that hand was butchered for many reasons.

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Initially the min-raise struck me as a standard play, possible to steal the blinds, or maybe just because.
Don't question preflop raises or their intent. Just consider a range instead. Actually a minraise is far from the standard play, maybe that is something you need to look into.

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The bet on the flop didn't worry me, as I would have expected the initial raiser to continue with just about any holdings on any board.
You can't "continue" when you called a 3bet. That's called leading into or donking. You were the preflop aggressor, anything but checking is suspicious. It should worry you.

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My raise on the flop really was to test the waters, if they called, I figured I was beat. Of course the most ideal situation was for them to fold or call with a worse hand (but that is very unlikely.)
This is where a real crapload of mistakes comes. First of all raising to "test the waters" is fundamentally wrong and nobody that plays seriously does that for more than a few months. You do it to get value or to get folds and sometimes a blend but that's a specific scenario. What did you try to achieve with this raise?

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Had they snapped called, or even called after just a couple of seconds I would have totally given up, but the amount of tanking time just made it feel like a weak call.
Yet he turned up with TPTK so this shows you shouldn't go into weird reads online. He called, that is your info.

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The bet on the turn also felt weak. villain sized down, almost like it was scared money.
Then call if he is weak.

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I jam, in my mind bluffing
You thought he was weak so you could have just called. Instead you ship it for what logic?

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he super long tank also sort of solidified my opinion that I was fairly on the money with my range assessment. Until of course they finally make the call at the last minute and turn over AK.
You took such a ridiculous line that it takes time for people to process. He came to the right call, again that is your information. You don't know if he "almost folded". Also to judge if this is the right play you need to look at his entire range and see if this accomplishes anything.

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Remember, I have been playing $1/$2 and $2/$4 mostly before this.
Dear lord

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But that being said, honestly, these players seem just as good if not better than the mid stakes players, in fact $2/$4 players seem to be the easiest players to play against
Yeah all the crushers moved down from making a living at 400NL to scraping pennies at your games.

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I honestly think if $10K appeared in my account tomorrow I could be a winner at that game.
Wow.
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08-03-2018 , 10:41 AM
The ranges you posted show that you didn’t even open the link provided and instead were just too lazy and guessed some ranges you thought people wouldn’t call too loose, you were offered coaching by a winning player who kindly offered you his valuable time for free and you were too lazy to do anything possible to make it happen.

You need to put at least some work in.
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08-03-2018 , 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelvis
I'm actually highly confident you're trolling now. If not; holy **** you were lucky to only burn $50k in 10 years.
Ok, for the sake of argument can we pretend that I am not "just trolling" and you tell me what I am doing wrong.....
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08-03-2018 , 11:04 AM
Dude,

Please listen to this advice. That hand that you posted was an abomination from the start and the fact you went into super hand reading mode was just cringe. At 2NL play simple, disciplined and tilt-free and you will easily win. Read/watch some material online and be committed to improve.

I have been playing for just under 2 years. Started with $10 and went bust 5 times. Last deposit I decided and was fully committed to start beating the games and said to myself I wasn't going to deposit any more after that.

I started playing the $0.25 45 man sngs, until I got to $30. Then played the $0.50 9 mans until I hit $60. Won the Big $1.10 for $450 which really got the bankroll going. Started playing 2NL --> 5NL --> 10NL and finally starting my second shot at 25NL with a bankroll at $850. Have withdrawn probably $350 over the course of that.

The bold disciplined decision I made was to grind 2NL with a $600 bankroll as I knew I had tilt issues and had no experience of cash games. I also played for fun and wanted to learn more about the game. I would watch twitch, youtube and read various strategy forums on here.

After a while, I started to learn the principles of why certain spots were 'standard'. I put a lot of hard work in and if I jumped into the big games straight away I know FOR SURE I would have been crushed and probably tilted my whole bankroll away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutlawLuck
So, I wasn't planning on playing last night, but I ended up squeezing in a 3 hour session before bed. More of the same. Up on 2 tables, down on 2 others, finishing the night basically break even. +$0.68 but I'll take it. I'll take winning 1/3 of a buy-in over losing several buy-ins (which is what I have been doing as of late.)
Honestly, forget about the results and monitor whether you think you are playing well. Experiment with things you see online and take a few calculated risks, not min-raising 99 IP on a K high board and then jamming the turn as well.

You won't profit while you are learning the game, face that. If you're in it for just the money then just stop as it clearly isn't working. If you want to get better, then listen to players who have been playing and WINNING for years and know what they are talking about.

Brokenstars honestly gave you a generous offer but you didn't seem that bothered about it. Coaching isn't cheap and you aren't going to be crushing overnight. Most poker players believe they should win in the long run but the truth is, most of them don't because they don't want to put the time in to improve or just blame it on run-bad. If you wanted to become a better player sooner, you would have had the motivation much sooner than being $50k down the hole.
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08-03-2018 , 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by enzet
after 10 years of playing, maybe read some training material for total beginners, these ranges are ridicolously tight, not loose as you might think.

you're opening 11% of hands from the cutoff, for reference, that should be around 25-30% for a solid player, more that twice combinations than you play.

even 10+ years old books could help you a lot improving, let alone some serious training sites.
Thank you. Apparently I was way off base on this. I thought I was too loose here (I actually expected quite a bit of ridicule.) See now this is what I need. I actually feel really comfortable playing loose (I mean after 10 years, and -$50k its not exactly like I am afraid to put money in the middle) but keep seeing things saying you should tighten your range, so that's what I have been trying to do.

I am going to do some more research on this. Thanks for the tip!
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08-03-2018 , 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by herbalerv
The ranges you posted show that you didn’t even open the link provided and instead were just too lazy and guessed some ranges you thought people wouldn’t call too loose, you were offered coaching by a winning player who kindly offered you his valuable time for free and you were too lazy to do anything possible to make it happen.

You need to put at least some work in.
No, I just haven't had the chance to yet.
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08-03-2018 , 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelvis
Right, basically start over and consider everything you know about the game invalid.

In case you're not trolling, that hand was butchered for many reasons.



Don't question preflop raises or their intent. Just consider a range instead. Actually a minraise is far from the standard play, maybe that is something you need to look into.



You can't "continue" when you called a 3bet. That's called leading into or donking. You were the preflop aggressor, anything but checking is suspicious. It should worry you.



This is where a real crapload of mistakes comes. First of all raising to "test the waters" is fundamentally wrong and nobody that plays seriously does that for more than a few months. You do it to get value or to get folds and sometimes a blend but that's a specific scenario. What did you try to achieve with this raise?



Yet he turned up with TPTK so this shows you shouldn't go into weird reads online. He called, that is your info.



Then call if he is weak.



You thought he was weak so you could have just called. Instead you ship it for what logic?



You took such a ridiculous line that it takes time for people to process. He came to the right call, again that is your information. You don't know if he "almost folded". Also to judge if this is the right play you need to look at his entire range and see if this accomplishes anything.



Dear lord



Yeah all the crushers moved down from making a living at 400NL to scraping pennies at your games.



Wow.

All good and fair points. Thanks.
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08-03-2018 , 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CC96
Dude,

Please listen to this advice. That hand that you posted was an abomination from the start and the fact you went into super hand reading mode was just cringe. At 2NL play simple, disciplined and tilt-free and you will easily win. Read/watch some material online and be committed to improve.

I have been playing for just under 2 years. Started with $10 and went bust 5 times. Last deposit I decided and was fully committed to start beating the games and said to myself I wasn't going to deposit any more after that.

I started playing the $0.25 45 man sngs, until I got to $30. Then played the $0.50 9 mans until I hit $60. Won the Big $1.10 for $450 which really got the bankroll going. Started playing 2NL --> 5NL --> 10NL and finally starting my second shot at 25NL with a bankroll at $850. Have withdrawn probably $350 over the course of that.

The bold disciplined decision I made was to grind 2NL with a $600 bankroll as I knew I had tilt issues and had no experience of cash games. I also played for fun and wanted to learn more about the game. I would watch twitch, youtube and read various strategy forums on here.

After a while, I started to learn the principles of why certain spots were 'standard'. I put a lot of hard work in and if I jumped into the big games straight away I know FOR SURE I would have been crushed and probably tilted my whole bankroll away.



Honestly, forget about the results and monitor whether you think you are playing well. Experiment with things you see online and take a few calculated risks, not min-raising 99 IP on a K high board and then jamming the turn as well.

You won't profit while you are learning the game, face that. If you're in it for just the money then just stop as it clearly isn't working. If you want to get better, then listen to players who have been playing and WINNING for years and know what they are talking about.

Brokenstars honestly gave you a generous offer but you didn't seem that bothered about it. Coaching isn't cheap and you aren't going to be crushing overnight. Most poker players believe they should win in the long run but the truth is, most of them don't because they don't want to put the time in to improve or just blame it on run-bad. If you wanted to become a better player sooner, you would have had the motivation much sooner than being $50k down the hole.

$50K sounds like a lot of money. But how many people have lost $5k over the last 10 years if they tallied it all up playing low stakes or $500 playing micros? Plenty of people just make a monthly deposit, just to **** around with. Same principle applied to me, accept I was playing casino stakes (which was what I was used to) instead of micro's (which I should have been playing all along.)

God, why does everybody say I blew off Brokenstars. It was late, I was tired, I was already freaking 6 handed in a SNG and and 7 Handed in another, and he only wanted to coach cash, now tourneys. That wasn't a good night. Plus I knew I was going to bed just as soon as those two games were over. I had to work in the morning. I am not some out of work college student, I have a legitimate career here people that takes precedent. Do I want to become a winning poker player, absolutely. But this now or never **** is for the ****ing birds. Adults don't work that way. At 24, maybe brokenstars and all of the rest of you felt like he was giving me a solid opportunity, but at 34 I just knew I had to be up at 5am to go work. Get off my back about this. If the offer still stands I would love nothing more than to take him up on it one night when it is convenient for both of us. But if any of you think a single session with ANYONE is going to change my game overnight, you are all more delusional than I may be about eventually becoming a winning player. I have 10 years of bad habits I am trying to break. I am relearning a game that I have been playing wrong for a decade. That is not going to be an easy or and overnight change. I am committed to the goal, but I also have priorities and commitments (like my son and my job) that will always comes before poker.
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08-03-2018 , 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC96
Dude,

Please listen to this advice. That hand that you posted was an abomination from the start and the fact you went into super hand reading mode was just cringe. At 2NL play simple, disciplined and tilt-free and you will easily win. Read/watch some material online and be committed to improve.

I have been playing for just under 2 years. Started with $10 and went bust 5 times. Last deposit I decided and was fully committed to start beating the games and said to myself I wasn't going to deposit any more after that.

I started playing the $0.25 45 man sngs, until I got to $30. Then played the $0.50 9 mans until I hit $60. Won the Big $1.10 for $450 which really got the bankroll going. Started playing 2NL --> 5NL --> 10NL and finally starting my second shot at 25NL with a bankroll at $850. Have withdrawn probably $350 over the course of that.

The bold disciplined decision I made was to grind 2NL with a $600 bankroll as I knew I had tilt issues and had no experience of cash games. I also played for fun and wanted to learn more about the game. I would watch twitch, youtube and read various strategy forums on here.

After a while, I started to learn the principles of why certain spots were 'standard'. I put a lot of hard work in and if I jumped into the big games straight away I know FOR SURE I would have been crushed and probably tilted my whole bankroll away.



Honestly, forget about the results and monitor whether you think you are playing well. Experiment with things you see online and take a few calculated risks, not min-raising 99 IP on a K high board and then jamming the turn as well.

You won't profit while you are learning the game, face that. If you're in it for just the money then just stop as it clearly isn't working. If you want to get better, then listen to players who have been playing and WINNING for years and know what they are talking about.

Brokenstars honestly gave you a generous offer but you didn't seem that bothered about it. Coaching isn't cheap and you aren't going to be crushing overnight. Most poker players believe they should win in the long run but the truth is, most of them don't because they don't want to put the time in to improve or just blame it on run-bad. If you wanted to become a better player sooner, you would have had the motivation much sooner than being $50k down the hole.
Ok, I played the hand terrible. Great. That's what I wanted to hear. AT first I thought it was a decent line till I saw AK. Then I thought it was horrible. Then I thought about it more and wasn't sure. Play more straight forward, don't get cute. I am with you.
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08-03-2018 , 11:29 AM
So conflicting advice not withstanding. The general consensus is to just play tight, and straight forward. Got it.
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08-03-2018 , 11:30 AM
So why did you put in 3 hours of playing 2NL last night (which long term is essentially worthless to you both experience and money wise) instead of working in Equilab when yet another poster offered you free help?
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08-03-2018 , 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by KatoKrazy
So why did you put in 3 hours of playing 2NL last night (which long term is essentially worthless to you both experience and money wise) instead of working in Equilab when yet another poster offered you free help?
Because the equilab suggestion didn't come until after I played the session....
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08-03-2018 , 11:52 AM
Look guys. I appreciate the concern. I also very much appreciate the advise and the suggestions. Equilab and upwing are both on my radar for the future (as is going old school and actually reading a book.)

I also (randomly) found some vids on youtube by blackrain79, so I am going to watch those as well. I am in the starting stages of starting over, from the ground up. I am trying to forget everything I knew (or thought I knew) about the game of poker.

At this point though, I really don't have the time or energy for daily updates, and I am tired of people telling me to just quite playing poker. None of that is helpful. I get it. I have read several other threads (6bet me is my current read. How da *** is that thing over 100 pages long in just a couple of months?!?) you all have seen a thousand fish come and go, big dreams, no skills, and they always go broke. I honestly don't blame any of you for feeling the way you feel after reading my posts. I guess I just expected something different out of joining this community. I thought it was a place for constructive criticism, encouragement, and helpful advice. Not just "you suck, quite playing poker." Yeah, I am aware that I suck at poker. I am trying to learn how to not suck at poker. I think going forward however I am going to just post my weekly or monthly updates of where my bankroll and my mental process stands. When and if I run into a hand that I am unsure of the line I will definitely post and ask for advice. But beyond that, you guys have already successfully burnt me out on the idea of having an active thread. I know most of you mean well, but I want to be a better poker player, and apparently wasting my time on this thread isn't going to help. I am just going to continue to play, and continue to study. Signing up for upswing sometime soon (unless I just find some free resources that work well for me) and I'll give my periodic updates.

Take care friends!
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08-03-2018 , 12:14 PM
When someone is a compulsive gambler, the constructive criticism IS to tell them to quit playing poker.
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08-03-2018 , 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by KatoKrazy
When someone is a compulsive gambler, the constructive criticism IS to tell them to quit playing poker.
Fair enough. I don't want to quit playing poker, I want to improve my game and become a winning poker player. Is that really impossible for me?
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08-03-2018 , 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by OutlawLuck
Fair enough. I don't want to quit playing poker, I want to improve my game and become a winning poker player. Is that really impossible for me?
The real choice is between becoming a winning player or loving the game. There's no both for you. Which do you pick?

If you can't, then you've chosen to "love the game" and be a losing player.
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08-03-2018 , 02:45 PM
The 99 hand from the last page is a spew, and is completely unnecessary, especially at these stakes. Unless you flop a set, you’re likely to win a small pot or lose a big pot.

Value bet, value bet, value bet. That’s how you beat the micros. You don’t need to pull off any Tom Dwan hero bluffs. Sure, it’s fun when the bluff gets through, but you aren’t going to win in the long run that way.

It’s hard enough to beat the rake at the micros, let alone when you add in the spew or the calling station calls.
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08-03-2018 , 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by OutlawLuck
Well I have admitted to being a losing poker player several times throughout this thread, I mean just look at the title.... but why can't I learn from my mistakes and become a winning poker player?
Well, you took a big step in starting this blog and I commend you for it.
Nothing wrong with that plus, your story is both entertaining and informative and interesting all in the same time.

Why you won't become a winning player? I didn't write that to hurt your feelings nor to brag about myself, I'm just a recreational player.
I wrote you what I think is the truth because it's the only way for you to save yourself.

You've been playing this game for so many years, you're obviously no kid, and you're not only still a loser, you haven't even begun to comprehend everything you're doing wrong. It's obvious to everyone but yourself.

Outlaw, there comes a time when we all have to wake up and face reality.
It's too late for you, move on with your life.
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08-03-2018 , 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by venice10
The real choice is between becoming a winning player or loving the game. There's no both for you. Which do you pick?

If you can't, then you've chosen to "love the game" and be a losing player.
Well that's a sad tale indeed. But if I had to pick I would pick being a winning poker player over having fun or "loving" the game.
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08-03-2018 , 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by tarheels2222
The 99 hand from the last page is a spew, and is completely unnecessary, especially at these stakes. Unless you flop a set, you’re likely to win a small pot or lose a big pot.

Value bet, value bet, value bet. That’s how you beat the micros. You don’t need to pull off any Tom Dwan hero bluffs. Sure, it’s fun when the bluff gets through, but you aren’t going to win in the long run that way.

It’s hard enough to beat the rake at the micros, let alone when you add in the spew or the calling station calls.
Solid advice. Duly noted.
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08-03-2018 , 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Nepeeme2008
Well, you took a big step in starting this blog and I commend you for it.
Nothing wrong with that plus, your story is both entertaining and informative and interesting all in the same time.

Why you won't become a winning player? I didn't write that to hurt your feelings nor to brag about myself, I'm just a recreational player.
I wrote you what I think is the truth because it's the only way for you to save yourself.

You've been playing this game for so many years, you're obviously no kid, and you're not only still a loser, you haven't even begun to comprehend everything you're doing wrong. It's obvious to everyone but yourself.

Outlaw, there comes a time when we all have to wake up and face reality.
It's too late for you, move on with your life.
Well that is actually why I started this in the first place. I wanted people to point out what it is that I am doing wrong, because obviously long term results don't lie. It's not bad luck, it's not variance, it's not life tilt, it's not the poker gods having a laugh. It's playing a losers game. I want to change course. I just don't understand why I am such a lost cause. Every winning poker player is just a losing poker player that got better aren't they? Sure a lot of people take to the game naturally. There are even plenty that sort of learn on their own. But the vast majority, correct me if I am wrong here, learn the game through study and discipline. So, that's what I am trying to do. Yes, I am doing it 15 years later than I should have, but is it really too late to start now?

Last edited by OutlawLuck; 08-03-2018 at 03:22 PM.
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