Yeah this is my thinking. Like if I start shotting 25z when I win enough at 10z, it could be like a 10BI 25z shot once every 3 months. Run bad a couple times and it's another year at 10z. I think I'll try and study this month and shot another 25z next month.

What I could do is just take a massive shot. Last month I deposited upto $1150 and moved down at $850. I could just take like a 24BI shot and move down with $400-600 left as that is more than enough for 10z.

The problem being is that in that shot I ran so bad, I couldn't really say I'm winning or losing at 25z. It's possible I wouldn't beat 25z variance aside, so a big shot could allow me to avoid variance but just burn a bunch of buyins much slowly at a stake I don't beat.

Yep. No shame in pushing yourself mate, well done on staying grounded.

When I moved up to 10nlz I was sort of cheating because I haven't strictly 'beaten' 5nlz. I'm pretty sure I could, what with crushing 20nl cash and being big into the theory, but it was UNPROVEN to myself and my tracker.

Cut to today, I'm somewhere around a break-even player at 10nlz. Kinda fair given the mistakes I'm still making.

Swings and roundabouts. Personally, I'm sticking to strict bankroll parameters for zoom (which i think of as a tough trainer/end-boss), while saving my wild shots for cash where I stand a much better chance of crushing above my allowance. Glad to hear you didn't feel intimidated though. Valuable experience gained.

Shotting 25z at peak whale times could be an option also.

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I feel like there is very little of a skill gap between 10NL/25NL
Sure u might find some regs who have more bluffs/higher aggression than the ones on 10 NL, otherwise u still lookin to find fish/good spots.

played a decent amount of hands on both stakes, money still comes mostly from villains not letting go of their hands/spewing randomly.

Would advice for the NL25 shots, gl

Dont shot take 25z before beating 10z in decent sample. It'll just demotivate you. The rake you pay doesn't make a huge difference between 25z and 10z. Rather than adding to the bankroll. Get a VM to run some preflop sims adjusted to the rake environment whether 10z or 25z, mine cost 90-100$ to run with a 3 bet or fold strat and 200$ for simple preflop (100 iters/node), or buy them from someone else.

I'm curious to see what others think, but I don't think spending that much on micro adjusted preflop sims is going to make that big of a difference. I've compared 500z rake preflop sims and microstakes rake preflop sims and it's marginally different. Right now I'm using 100z rake preflop strategy and I think it is fine. I don't think preflop is one of the biggest issues in my game.

I also play 10/25NL and I don't think it's worth the money, since the plan is to move up as soon as possible. You can use your preflop ranges, and try to adapt according to the pool.

@TrusttheDrawcess what's your winrate at 10NL? (if you don't mind me asking)

I have to disagree with bon voyage. Grinding a solid wr over a "decent" sample will prove nothing but that you wasted your solid play at 10z instead of 25z lol. Same strategy that wins at 10z will win at 25z. We're not talking about the leap from 200z to 500z here. Plus your winnings will be more than 2x the amount of 10z which will help you get to 50z faster.

I also agree that micro preflop sims aren't worth it. You're way better off developing postflop skills/exploits which will easily overcome any small loss in EV from playing slightly incorrect ranges. Plus, if you can do that and continue using ranges for higher stakes, it sets you up better for when you move up

This isn't how poker works

I agree. What should dictate your moving up/down process is your bankroll managment, and not the fact that you won at a stake over a "decent" sample. If you're playing fundamentally sound poker and is winning on nl10z, you'll be able to win on nl25z as well. Besides that, in order to know our real winrate we need a loooooot of hands. A mean, even a 200k sample is not near enough to know our winrate or something like that. Therefore, you'll move up stakes before you know your "true" winrate on that stake anyway.

Just grind until you hit whatever mark your bankroll managment uses and that's it. It's normal to move down and up a lot. Let's go!

I think I disagree. If we assume that the increase in skill is offset by the decrease in rake (a very reasonable assumption for 10nl-25nl I'm guessing, even though the rake difference is negligible, the skill difference is likely negligible too) then it makes the most sense to play and learn at a higher limit. For example, if someone was a 4bb ev winner at 10nl and a 3bb ev winner at 25nl, then their $ev at 25nl would be almost 2x that of 10nl. I think it's reasonable to assume that there are level jumps where ev winrates don't change despite a meaningful increase in skill, as a result of a significant decrease in rake.

If bankroll isn't an issue for someone then they should push to move up rapidly. Although if someone had a -$ev at a level then maybe that should set off alarm bells and they should exercise more caution.

Also this advice doesn't factor in mental game which is obviously significant and one of the biggest barriers to moving through levels more than skill differentials between the levels IMO. Definitely at micro stakes. 10nl-25nl is one of the rarer 2.5x stake increases and they can be the toughest mentally.

^^Every level is sequentially harder OF COURSE it is because everyone, even fish, are all trying to play as high as they can.

If someone is a 4bb winner at 10nlz it will not take them too long to get to 25nlz. This isn't a race anyway. What are you racing for? Tougher opponents?

Even if a level is sequentially tougher in terms of average skill level, with rake differences factored in it's not unreasonable to assume that somebody's winrate could stay the same when moving up. In which case, if you can generate almost the same bb/100 at a higher level then that's the always the play. As I said, the only complication is mental game which can admittedly be a big complication.


Whether it is a race or not is subjective, but a tougher game at higher stakes doesn't necessarily mean less $/100, in many cases it means a significant increase in $/100 or $/hr, regardless of tougher opponents.

I take your point - I've played cash games outside my bankroll, and I understand the logic of winning "more" in higher games with lesser theoretical edge/WR.

But that's cash, and this is zoom. Winrates are much more concentrated and difficult. Edges are thinner; rake savings are thiner; and how would you even know either of those two figures to compare unless you were confidently winning in the first place (in which case you would naturally move up, if that was the priority)?

I could probably sit down at a well bum-hunted 100nl table and crush today and it would make financial sense because my edge would reasonable. But I'm not really playing zoom to "escape" the micros. I'm playing to learn a strategy that is sound enough to naturally and trivially escape the micros, at any stake, as a side effect of being good. If I wanted to build a BR quick or maximise my WR I would grind cash.

I can see how jumping stakes saves time. I'm open to the idea of it.

I'm not talking about "jumping stakes", even though I don't know what this actually means. You should follow a good BRM, therefore you shouldn't "jump stakes".

But that doesn't mean you should play a limit until you have a "decent sample" on that limit, because "decent sample" is a ridiculously high number. If you already won what you need to move up from the bankroll point of view, you should move up (at least if you're feeling good about your game, of couse).

If you're feeling good about your game, what should dictates your moving up/down process is your BRM, and not the fact that you already have a "decent sample" on the last limit. That's the point.

I definitely agree with you @Ceres about building a solid winning strategy and having the proof to back it up but the issue here is the game format, rake and time commitment. We all know zoom has lower WRs. Let's say Trust has a very nice wr of 5bb/100 so he would win $500 for every 100k hands. That's pretty good but Trust only played 25k hands last month. If that is his average pace it will take him 4 months to reach that. 8 months to hit $1k. Almost a whole year grinding 10z before he can move up. For a 5bb/100 winner! Unless poker is just a fun hobby to unwind like say video games than that is just way too much time for a serious player to be playing for pennies.

The best way out of low stakes is positive wr plus professional player level of volume or to start at 25nl or preferably 50nl if you can afford it. Of course this all moot if your mental game is trash than you will always be a loser.

In OP March recap he said he has 90bi so $900 which is 36bi for 25z. More than enough for a non professional trying to move up aggressively which should be all of our goals if poker is more than just a hobby to us.

I don't understand why ppl need to take shots in the old fashioned way and only play the higher stake, in this case 25z till they bust their "shot".

Just play 2 tables 10z and add one table 25z or something, lower variance way to ease in to a new stake imo.

I appreciate all the thoughts and opinions guys!

Yeah, I kind of agree with this mindset that you and Shelly seem to be advocating for. I think it makes sense to get to 25z as fast as possible, and not wait around at 10z. Like you indicated, if I was grinding the BI to shot 25z at 10z, it could be 2-3 months of 10z to get a 5-10BI shot, assuming I run good without losing months.

I am lucky though that I can comfortably afford to take a 10-12BI shot each month and lose it without it really impacting me financially (atleast until Aug/Sept when I'll probably get a vax, move out and start paying Toronto rent, which won't allow me to save 60-80% of my income each month like now) so I think it makes sense to try and get to 25z and stay there while I can.

Admittedly, I don't have a huge crushing sample at 10z this calendar year (got some mentoring in Jan/Feb and have made significant changes to my game this year, so I'm ignoring my losing months in late 2020), as I'm only winning at 1.7bb/100 in 60k hands. However, I'm working more and more on my game, and I think that will only go up. I think my real WR right now at 10z is probably 2bb-6bb/100, though I'm cognizant that low WRs are subject to a ton of variance and take a ton of time to become clear.

While I may not be "crushing" 10z, even though I ran bad in my shot at 25z, it honestly felt softer. While the solid good regs (of whom there are more) were better, the fish:reg ratio felt better than 10z, atleast at some evening EST times. I think my WR at 25z and 10z are probably similar.

Plus, another consideration is that I can clear the 40% rakeback challenges much faster and easier at 25z (even just 2 tabling) without grinding hard at all. I can do it twice in a month while 2-tabling, even playing 75% of my normal 10z volume. If play an average of 25k hands a month there, I can do it twice for $160 rakeback. That's (if my math is correct) 2.4bb/100 in rakeback, making it that much easier for me to beat the stake.

Even if I can basically be BE/marginally winning at 25z, I think it makes more sense to try and stay up there rather than play 10z. As Bobby said, I could end up at 10z for many more months if I am patient and wait for a crushing sample.

Especially given that basically my ultimate goal online is to beat 25z. I'll be happy and call this completed once I have a trailing 100k sample with an evbb of 3bb/100+.

Though, that isn't to say I'm quitting then, just that once I hit that goal, I'll reevaluate what I want to do in poker, and decide whether I want to move up more at zoom, play MTTs/SNGs or move to a soft site and collect money at reg tables. Ideally though I'm hoping once I finally beat 25z, COVID will be over, and I can turn my attention/volume to live and hope to making a decent sideincome with a live grinding hobby, using zoom to sharpen the saw so to speak.

Assuming things go well at 10z this month, I'll probably redeposit at 25z for May.

I just can't do this, some kind of mental block, the idea is just really yucky to me. All of one stake/site/pool at a time for me.

Hey GL with your challenge! I just started my challenge today at 2NL zoom, hope to move up to your stakes soon!

Hey guys,


Here to do a quick wrap up of the month.

25z graph from shot at the beginning:



10z after I moved back down:




I took my 12BI 25z shot at the beginning of the month. I'm not going to discuss it much, as I did a bunch already in this thread, but I ran absolutely god awful and had to move down. I ran so bad I don't think it helped at all see whether or not I would be a winner there.

Anyway, it was an interesting month at 10z after I moved back down. It was low volume as I focused on studying more.

I started really well, then things turned mid month. I had noticed before this month that in Feb/March at 10z, I seem to have this pattern recently at 10z that I start really well and about mid way end up losing most of my profits back and finishing around BE for the month.

I'm not sure why this seems to be happening, but it was definitely on my mind this month, and I feel like it impacted my mental game a lot as when I started losing a bit mid month, I got this "here we go again" mindset and my play was poor. I definitely think my play declined and I think it was mainly poor play/passivity that caused this more than variance.

Anyway, I've taken the last few days of the month off to sort of reset and clear my mind.

I'm going to deposit and take another shot at 25z to start May, hoping it goes better. I'm lucky to be fortunate in life that I can comfortably afford to deposit and shot aggressively, and although I don't have a super convincing sample at 10z, I want to aggressively try to get to 25z and stick there. I'm not sure, but it'll either be a 10 or 12 BI shot.

I'm still struggling to find the right amount of aggression, and still struggle with being passive postflop, and especially not 3betting enough, but atleast I'm comfortably playing 22/19 now.

Anyway, I'm going to continue studying and working on my game this month, and hope my shot at 25z goes a bit better this time.

I use GTOWizard free for my preflop ranges, take them as a guideline and deviate from them according to the players left to act. It helped my game immensely as before I had little clue what to do in most spots and also cold called too much, now I coldcall in less than 1% of hands except on the bigblind

They're honestly huge that they put those 50z rake ranges out there for free.

Quick Wizard question: how good/useful is the upload hands feature?