Being a winner at PLO2-PLO500 zoom or NL zoom
12-03-2018
, 08:38 PM
Quote:
No pls do not give up PLO10!
I know PLO10 is hard to beat compared to PLO5 or even PLO25 but that if you can take that hurdle it means a lot imo.
Try to improve your overall game, stick to value hands only, share your hands. I would be really sad if you leave us back to Holdem. Put more effort into theoretical improvement, what books/videos do you have? I had that phase too but I think longterm PLO has much more potential to be profitable and edges are easier to develop.
About your last 3 Plo hands:
When playing postflop, the board texture influences the ranges, the handstrength and the playing dynamic much more compared to holdem.
1) I would fold a bare overpair against a straightforward regular or unknown for the first time, the c-bet should be still profitable and being wrong does not cost you much. You can avoid swingy spots and it is probably still +ev as their raising range is against a lot of abc-regulars more weighted towards value hands, they often have no light semi-bluffs for stacks. If you have seen villain checkraising single toppair hands in 3bp you can make a note and gii with overpairs in the future. In agressive dynamics this hand usually tends to become an auto-stack off. He will have TTxx very rarely and u can rule out most sets. His combodraws should come more seldom too, this is a very light flop.
2) This is also a light flop so the scenario is similar at the first glance but if you take a closer look at it it is not. Think about preflop ranges that brought you into the situation otf. First you are oop against a openraise-flatcalling range which should be stronger, often nonpaired and exclude all AA combos (therefore more Broadway-x-x-x hands). Now you have a bb-defensive coldcalling range which can be very wide and more nutted. He will have KKxx primarily when he decides to checkraise 4value. As you have the best overpair, a backdoorflushdraw and a pairblocker overall I would defend this hand with a call as a default and fold on the turn without improvement just as you did. A flop bet-fold against straightforward or unknown regulars makes sense too.
3) This is a very heavy and wet board. If you want to balance your turn-checking range this hand suits well as a check-call. A flushdraw is unlikely to call 2 barrels on a paired board and you have a high flushdraw yourself. If he has a pair he won't have many outs to overtake you. In turn situations like this where both players are likely to have trips it is your advantage to have overcards to the nonpaired sidecards of the board (Q, T and 8 which you can count as 1 out over 9 & 6 for his instance). So a bet to build the pot is okay. On the river is is not an automatic stack-off, you should be aware he must be calling more flushes and bare trips compared to full-houses that have you beat, so the check-call is a nice option. against passive fishes go ahead and bet allin otr). Against nits and some very tight regs I would even consider check-folding. You always want to dominate your opponents and you dont want to pay the nuts with second best hands. with a fullhouse he could feel very safe and just call ip to trap you.
4) It is a dry paired board. Considering the SPR you cannot fold trips, you are ahead of high pocket pairs and you have some back-up outs so this is well-played.
I know PLO10 is hard to beat compared to PLO5 or even PLO25 but that if you can take that hurdle it means a lot imo.
Try to improve your overall game, stick to value hands only, share your hands. I would be really sad if you leave us back to Holdem. Put more effort into theoretical improvement, what books/videos do you have? I had that phase too but I think longterm PLO has much more potential to be profitable and edges are easier to develop.
About your last 3 Plo hands:
When playing postflop, the board texture influences the ranges, the handstrength and the playing dynamic much more compared to holdem.
1) I would fold a bare overpair against a straightforward regular or unknown for the first time, the c-bet should be still profitable and being wrong does not cost you much. You can avoid swingy spots and it is probably still +ev as their raising range is against a lot of abc-regulars more weighted towards value hands, they often have no light semi-bluffs for stacks. If you have seen villain checkraising single toppair hands in 3bp you can make a note and gii with overpairs in the future. In agressive dynamics this hand usually tends to become an auto-stack off. He will have TTxx very rarely and u can rule out most sets. His combodraws should come more seldom too, this is a very light flop.
2) This is also a light flop so the scenario is similar at the first glance but if you take a closer look at it it is not. Think about preflop ranges that brought you into the situation otf. First you are oop against a openraise-flatcalling range which should be stronger, often nonpaired and exclude all AA combos (therefore more Broadway-x-x-x hands). Now you have a bb-defensive coldcalling range which can be very wide and more nutted. He will have KKxx primarily when he decides to checkraise 4value. As you have the best overpair, a backdoorflushdraw and a pairblocker overall I would defend this hand with a call as a default and fold on the turn without improvement just as you did. A flop bet-fold against straightforward or unknown regulars makes sense too.
3) This is a very heavy and wet board. If you want to balance your turn-checking range this hand suits well as a check-call. A flushdraw is unlikely to call 2 barrels on a paired board and you have a high flushdraw yourself. If he has a pair he won't have many outs to overtake you. In turn situations like this where both players are likely to have trips it is your advantage to have overcards to the nonpaired sidecards of the board (Q, T and 8 which you can count as 1 out over 9 & 6 for his instance). So a bet to build the pot is okay. On the river is is not an automatic stack-off, you should be aware he must be calling more flushes and bare trips compared to full-houses that have you beat, so the check-call is a nice option. against passive fishes go ahead and bet allin otr). Against nits and some very tight regs I would even consider check-folding. You always want to dominate your opponents and you dont want to pay the nuts with second best hands. with a fullhouse he could feel very safe and just call ip to trap you.
4) It is a dry paired board. Considering the SPR you cannot fold trips, you are ahead of high pocket pairs and you have some back-up outs so this is well-played.
How come you think PLO10 is hard even compared to PLO25?
yeah I do really like PLO and look forward to playing it again I just feel it is better to play NL at the moment. It just suits me to play NL at the moment as I feel I can be playing half asleep and the graph will go up, whereas if I did that in PLO I would be down 5 buy-ins. Will probably play NL for a couple of levels and come back to PLO then as I just think I'm spinning my wheels at PLO10 and don't really have much spare cash to add to the bankroll over christmas so the best thing would be to play NL as even if I could beat PLO10 I think I would make money slower than NL with playing less hands and might not even be able to beat it as much as NL anyway.
Thanks for the hand summaries you did
very in depth and GL climbing the stakes in your thread.So played some more NL today and it went well again. These were the hands that got tagged.
found this hand interesting but guess I have to get it all in?
PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $11.43 (114 bb)
MP: $13.23 (132 bb)
CO: $34.47 (345 bb)
BU: $10.17 (102 bb)
SB: $11.88 (119 bb)
BB (Hero): $14.23 (142 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with A♠ A♣
UTG raises to $0.30, 1 fold, CO calls $0.30, 2 players fold, Hero 3-bets to $1.50, UTG calls $1.20, CO calls $1.20
Flop: ($4.55) 9♣ K♦ 6♦ (3 players)
Hero bets $2.80, UTG calls $2.80, CO raises to $32.97 (all-in), Hero calls $9.93 (all-in), UTG calls $7.13 (all-in)
this hand is a bit similar
PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $12.88 (129 bb)
MP: $22.27 (223 bb)
CO: $23.88 (239 bb)
BU: $38.92 (389 bb)
SB (Hero): $13.42 (134 bb)
BB: $25.94 (259 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is SB with A♥ A♠
3 players fold, BTN raises to $0.20, Hero 3-bets to $0.85, BB calls $0.75, BTN calls $0.65
Flop: ($2.55) 5♥ 8♣ 6♣ (3 players)
Hero bets $1.50, BB folds, BTN raises to $38.07 (all-in), Hero calls $11.07 (all-in)
and this hand I tagged, probably because I played it bad
PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $7.33 (73 bb)
MP: $7.74 (77 bb)
CO: $15.02 (150 bb)
BU: $20.33 (203 bb)
SB: $11.32 (113 bb)
BB (Hero): $24.40 (244 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with K♦ K♣
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, 3 players fold, Hero raises to $0.45, MP calls $0.35
Flop: ($0.95) 2♣ 4♣ 3♥ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.71, MP calls $0.71
Turn: ($2.37) A♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks
River: ($2.37) J♥ (2 players)
Hero bets $1.25, MP calls $1.25
this is the graph of today
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[/IMG]and NL10 so far
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12-05-2018
, 08:02 PM
Thanks Tobjo you know more about the Texas trip than me though 
Played again today at NL10 and it went well. Going to move up to NL25 as I'm beating NL10 fine and if I did lose my 15 or so buy-in shot at NL25 then the NL10 bankroll can be replaced.
these are the hands I tagged from today
this hand I found quite interesting
PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $13.91 (139 bb)
MP: $2.28 (23 bb)
CO: $7.34 (73 bb)
BU: $10.18 (102 bb)
SB: $20.90 (209 bb)
BB (Hero): $35.77 (358 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with K♣ T♥
4 players fold, SB raises to $0.30, Hero 3-bets to $0.90, SB calls $0.60
Flop: ($1.80) 4♥ 6♠ J♣ (2 players)
SB bets $1.22, Hero calls $1.22
Turn: ($4.24) Q♥ (2 players)
SB bets $3.70, BB (Hero) folds
this hand looking back on it I'm not quite sure what I'm doing. Think at the time I was trying to work out if I had about 30% equity to get the money in but I probably got my maths all wrong
PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $2.94 (29 bb)
MP: $4.89 (49 bb)
CO: $8.19 (82 bb)
BU: $10.00 (100 bb)
SB (Hero): $10.00 (100 bb)
BB: $7.10 (71 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is SB with T♦ T♣
2 players fold, CO raises to $0.30, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $1.20, 1 fold, CO calls $0.90
Flop: ($2.50) 8♦ 7♦ J♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $1.40, CO raises to $5.92, Hero raises to $8.80 (all-in), CO calls $1.07 (all-in)
and this hand I didn't play very well either, would be interested in how other people would play it and why
PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $11.62 (116 bb)
MP (Hero): $10.96 (110 bb)
CO: $10.14 (101 bb)
BU: $10.61 (106 bb)
SB: $12.48 (125 bb)
BB: $13.22 (132 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP with 7♣ A♣
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, BTN calls $0.30, 2 players fold
Flop: ($1.05) Q♠ 3♣ 4♣ (3 players)
Hero bets $0.65, CO raises to $1.50, BU folds, Hero calls $0.85
Turn: ($4.05) 2♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $2.98, MP (Hero) folds
NL10 graph from today
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and this is how the NL10 graph looks at the moment
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you know more about the Texas trip than me though Played again today at NL10 and it went well. Going to move up to NL25 as I'm beating NL10 fine and if I did lose my 15 or so buy-in shot at NL25 then the NL10 bankroll can be replaced.
these are the hands I tagged from today
this hand I found quite interesting
PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $13.91 (139 bb)
MP: $2.28 (23 bb)
CO: $7.34 (73 bb)
BU: $10.18 (102 bb)
SB: $20.90 (209 bb)
BB (Hero): $35.77 (358 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with K♣ T♥
4 players fold, SB raises to $0.30, Hero 3-bets to $0.90, SB calls $0.60
Flop: ($1.80) 4♥ 6♠ J♣ (2 players)
SB bets $1.22, Hero calls $1.22
Turn: ($4.24) Q♥ (2 players)
SB bets $3.70, BB (Hero) folds
this hand looking back on it I'm not quite sure what I'm doing. Think at the time I was trying to work out if I had about 30% equity to get the money in but I probably got my maths all wrong
PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $2.94 (29 bb)
MP: $4.89 (49 bb)
CO: $8.19 (82 bb)
BU: $10.00 (100 bb)
SB (Hero): $10.00 (100 bb)
BB: $7.10 (71 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is SB with T♦ T♣
2 players fold, CO raises to $0.30, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $1.20, 1 fold, CO calls $0.90
Flop: ($2.50) 8♦ 7♦ J♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $1.40, CO raises to $5.92, Hero raises to $8.80 (all-in), CO calls $1.07 (all-in)
and this hand I didn't play very well either, would be interested in how other people would play it and why
PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $11.62 (116 bb)
MP (Hero): $10.96 (110 bb)
CO: $10.14 (101 bb)
BU: $10.61 (106 bb)
SB: $12.48 (125 bb)
BB: $13.22 (132 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP with 7♣ A♣
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, BTN calls $0.30, 2 players fold
Flop: ($1.05) Q♠ 3♣ 4♣ (3 players)
Hero bets $0.65, CO raises to $1.50, BU folds, Hero calls $0.85
Turn: ($4.05) 2♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $2.98, MP (Hero) folds
NL10 graph from today
[IMG]
[/IMG]and this is how the NL10 graph looks at the moment
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12-06-2018
, 05:55 PM
Played NL25 today and it went well and I liked the feel of it. Got given a few buy-ins straight away which was nice, hopefully I'll be able to beat it over a large amount of hands though.
this was the one hand I tagged. probably a poor bet on the turn and an okay fold on the river i think.
PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG (Hero): $35.41 (142 bb)
MP: $21.59 (86 bb)
CO: $26.41 (106 bb)
BU: $21.85 (87 bb)
SB: $13.67 (55 bb)
BB: $104.06 (416 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with K♣ K♦
Hero raises to $0.75, 1 fold, CO calls $0.75, 3 players fold
Flop: ($1.85) T♣ 5♠ 9♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $1.10, CO calls $1.10
Turn: ($4.05) 4♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $2.20, CO calls $2.20
River: ($8.45) Q♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $4.75, UTG (Hero) folds
and the first NL25 graph
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[/IMG]
this was the one hand I tagged. probably a poor bet on the turn and an okay fold on the river i think.
PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG (Hero): $35.41 (142 bb)
MP: $21.59 (86 bb)
CO: $26.41 (106 bb)
BU: $21.85 (87 bb)
SB: $13.67 (55 bb)
BB: $104.06 (416 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with K♣ K♦
Hero raises to $0.75, 1 fold, CO calls $0.75, 3 players fold
Flop: ($1.85) T♣ 5♠ 9♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $1.10, CO calls $1.10
Turn: ($4.05) 4♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $2.20, CO calls $2.20
River: ($8.45) Q♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $4.75, UTG (Hero) folds
and the first NL25 graph
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12-10-2018
, 10:29 PM
Thanks Masq, think I might stick with it for a while after the last few days
Haven't updated this thread for a few days but that seems like a long time after playing a few sessions of poker. Was updating after every day played but I was pretty tired this weekend and still played which didn't go too bad but I didn't bother updating. So since a few days ago I maybe donked off a few buy-ins at NL25, was a bit tired and could have played better I think, but now I've about won them back again and it still feels like I can beat it but hopefully I can over a large sample as maybe it can be a little bit up and down.
I also played 4000 hands of PLO25 omaha which I shouldn't really have been doing as I don't have the bankroll for it and I've seen some of the variance in the small sample of PLO10 I have played. Anyway after 4000 hands my EV line is about even, I thought I might have just been on tilt at PLO10 after losing so many buy-ins there but PLO25 also didn't really feel beatable for me at the moment. Whilst I do need to put in a lot of work on my PLO game I found PLO25 similar to PLO10, get a strong hand, everyone folds, make a bluff everyone calls. The game feels more nitty than NL in a way. Its seems just like a slow loss/ breakeven for me, when in the past at higher stakes on other sites I go up loads, lose more etc the games felt beatable and even after losing it felt like a very exciting game, losing money slowly with no real upticks just is frustrating me at the moment, I thought I'd never go back to NL but I think I will maybe until if I ever get to a bankroll for PLO200 as I imagine PLO50 and maybe PLO100 I will feel the same.
here are my graphs from PLO, with $850 rake and running under EV, zoom microstakes seem to be as bad as people say but then I see a few graphs in the small stakes PLO forum of people beating it easily and I can't work out how.
Hopefully after having a little moan and giving the reasons above I can keep away from PLO for a while
, my aim is to stick to NL25 until I have $1500 to play NL50.
Here are a couple of my PLO graphs
PLO25 zoom
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All zoom PLO so far
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and here are a couple of my NL graphs
NL25 zoom
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NL zoom so far
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Haven't updated this thread for a few days but that seems like a long time after playing a few sessions of poker. Was updating after every day played but I was pretty tired this weekend and still played which didn't go too bad but I didn't bother updating. So since a few days ago I maybe donked off a few buy-ins at NL25, was a bit tired and could have played better I think, but now I've about won them back again and it still feels like I can beat it but hopefully I can over a large sample as maybe it can be a little bit up and down.
I also played 4000 hands of PLO25 omaha which I shouldn't really have been doing as I don't have the bankroll for it and I've seen some of the variance in the small sample of PLO10 I have played. Anyway after 4000 hands my EV line is about even, I thought I might have just been on tilt at PLO10 after losing so many buy-ins there but PLO25 also didn't really feel beatable for me at the moment. Whilst I do need to put in a lot of work on my PLO game I found PLO25 similar to PLO10, get a strong hand, everyone folds, make a bluff everyone calls. The game feels more nitty than NL in a way. Its seems just like a slow loss/ breakeven for me, when in the past at higher stakes on other sites I go up loads, lose more etc the games felt beatable and even after losing it felt like a very exciting game, losing money slowly with no real upticks just is frustrating me at the moment, I thought I'd never go back to NL but I think I will maybe until if I ever get to a bankroll for PLO200 as I imagine PLO50 and maybe PLO100 I will feel the same.
here are my graphs from PLO, with $850 rake and running under EV, zoom microstakes seem to be as bad as people say but then I see a few graphs in the small stakes PLO forum of people beating it easily and I can't work out how.
Hopefully after having a little moan and giving the reasons above I can keep away from PLO for a while
, my aim is to stick to NL25 until I have $1500 to play NL50.Here are a couple of my PLO graphs
PLO25 zoom
[IMG]
[/IMG]All zoom PLO so far
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[/IMG]and here are a couple of my NL graphs
NL25 zoom
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[/IMG]NL zoom so far
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12-18-2018
, 07:33 PM
just read up the page and realised you meant texas hold'em
this is what I have been doing, this is my NL25 graph
[IMG]
[/IMG]not going as well as I thought it would go after starting NL again, but its okay might play a bit here and there.
I probably seem quite confused, and I think I am quite confused really, switching between games. I played some more PLO today and I just 2 tabled for the first time since the start of PLO10 and 2 tabling maybe will make the difference between me being a loser and winner at the stakes, I know it is just 600 hands but it did feel better, 4 tabling I'm just autopiloting badly I think. So maybe my plan now is to just go back to what I was doing at the start of the thread and 2 table and post some hands for review, will try and do this everyday as entering into this blog kind of brings an end to my day, when I'm not posting in here it just becomes a bit of a poker blur. Ever since the start of 4 tabling zoom it seems to have just gone a bit wrong really. This is my graph of today and also PLO25 so far.
today
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[/IMG]plo25 so far
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[/IMG]here are the hands I tagged from today
this hand I made quite a mess of, looked better than what it was, maybe if a straight wasn't possible and I wasn't as deep a raise would be okay on the flop
PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $36.40 (146 bb)
MP: $40.66 (163 bb)
CO: $30.81 (123 bb)
BU: $22.28 (89 bb)
SB (Hero): $64.02 (256 bb)
BB: $12.37 (49 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with K♦ K♣ 7♠ 2♦
1 fold, MP raises to $0.85, CO calls $0.85, BTN calls $0.85, Hero calls $0.75, 1 fold
Flop: ($3.65) 2♠ 3♦ 4♦ (4 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $1.75, CO calls $1.75, BU folds, Hero raises to $10.49, MP raises to $36.71, CO folds, Hero raises to $63.17 (all-in), MP calls $3.10 (all-in)
this hand I think I was just trying to slow play as sometimes I've noticed players are nitty and will fold but maybe when the board is like this I should bet
PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $12.34 (49 bb)
MP (Hero): $21.93 (88 bb)
CO: $39.43 (158 bb)
BU: $35.41 (142 bb)
SB: $52.64 (211 bb)
BB: $17.32 (69 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is MP with 3♥ 5♦ A♣ A♦
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.85, CO calls $0.85, BTN calls $0.85, 1 fold, BB calls $0.60
Flop: ($3.50) A♥ 5♠ K♥ (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, BTN bets $1.68, BB folds, Hero calls $1.68, CO folds
Turn: ($6.86) T♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $3.29, Hero calls $3.29
River: ($13.44) 4♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $12.87, MP (Hero) folds
this hand, should I fold to his 4bet when I'm holding an A? turns out he had rubbish but not sure calling a 4bet in general is good here, although have noticed a couple of times people 4betting rubbish tonight
PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $19.74 (79 bb)
MP: $11.48 (46 bb)
CO: $74.26 (297 bb)
BU (Hero): $120.16 (481 bb)
SB: $12.35 (49 bb)
BB: $25.00 (100 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with T♣ Q♠ 4♠ A♣
2 players fold, CO raises to $0.85, Hero 3-bets to $2.90, 1 fold, BB 4-bets to $9.65, 1 fold, Hero calls $6.75
Flop: ($20.25) Q♥ T♥ 9♦ (2 players)
BB bets $15.35 (all-in), [b]Hero calls $15.35[/b
and this last hand, think I just raise for no particular reason here
PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $10.17 (41 bb)
MP: $61.99 (248 bb)
CO: $25.75 (103 bb)
BU: $25.48 (102 bb)
SB: $29.24 (117 bb)
BB (Hero): $72.80 (291 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with 6♣ 5♦ 4♦ J♣
2 players fold, CO raises to $0.85, 2 players fold, Hero calls $0.60
Flop: ($1.80) 3♠ 6♠ A♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.32, Hero raises to $3.94, CO raises to $13.54, BB (Hero) folds
12-19-2018
, 08:16 PM
and then today the opposite of yesterday happens, just two tabling but losing pretty bad Maybe when I'm not making hands I should just accept a smaller losing period rather than working out they don't have a great hand, bluffing and still losing anyway. I was probably tiliting a bit as I didn't tag any hands. Here is the graph and graph of PLO25 so far.
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Maybe when I'm not making hands I should just accept a smaller losing period rather than working out they don't have a great hand, bluffing and still losing anyway. I was probably tiliting a bit as I didn't tag any hands. Here is the graph and graph of PLO25 so far. [IMG]
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12-24-2018
, 02:05 PM
Quote:
As I can see from your graph and as Dark_Synergy mentioned, you are probably too spewy on PLO25, gettin too much money in spots badly and where your range awareness is probably bad. That's a main reason imo to NOT skip PLO10. On PLO10 you really have to focus on board texture reading and establishing a value orientated gameplan circled around the nuts and learn which lines and bet-sizings to take on several runouts and which betting frequencies to establish against certain player types. You also gain a lot with a solid preflop gameplan where you know how to openraise, limp and 3bet as a default. These are very important skills to gain edge in a more tight/straightforward playerpool like zoom plo10 and will form your basics for later developments on plo25+ where u you will focus to maximize exploitation by creating more ranges, learn how to deviate your frequencies correctly and so on. To actually beat plo25 without investing too much brainpower you need to beat plo10.
And thank you for you gl-wishes. I also wish you the best no matter if you play nlhe or plo. I will still follow your thread as long as there are some plo-postings^^
And thank you for you gl-wishes. I also wish you the best no matter if you play nlhe or plo. I will still follow your thread as long as there are some plo-postings^^
Quote:
Ok. This is spew... you are definitely in a "holdem-thinking" mode where a big pair is ahead on the flop mostly so we go ahead and bet/raise to protect it from draws.
In Plo the flop virtually resets the game, because the amount of possible flops is huge and handstrengths must be evaluated new and seperated from the preflop "handstrength". Preflop you actually have no handstrengths in plo like in holdem, but you want to have as many and good components as possible like a suited ace, a high pair or connectivity value. The bigger your cards the better.
Your preflop call is correct but also think why you play preflop the way you did, you have a nutty component (high pair) with sidevalue (flush) that may hit a strong hand you are willing to play for stacks (topset+flushdraw or topset on a dry board). Against an openraise for example I would just fold rainbow trash KK because 1 single component (set) is not enough to continue against good aggressive opponents multiway or oop. Your preflop play is dictated by flop scenarios that may occure.
On the flop you make a squeeze I assume for protection. In PLO you dont bet a hand for a single purpose (only on the river). It is better to think in terms of equity realization which leads to thinking in terms of domination and playability. If you start to construct handranges, it makes sense to always start with the nuts, and how often it is within opponents range (and your range). If you take a look at PPT you will see, the probability that at least 1 of the other 3 player has flopped the nuts with a 65xx combo is around 11,5% which is decent. You are also beaten by the A5xx straight. Other hands that may get it in have you dominated 2:1 or even worse, like set+flushdraw, set+straightdraw and so on. The nutflushdraw is always more likely than any other flushdraw so if you run into the nutflushdraw+made hand value you are dominated aswell. So if you get action from your raise, you are
1) completely dead (straights or other better made hand plus nutflushredraw)
2) dominated (bare straights, strong combo hands that have decent equity vs nuts)
In 4way pots the amount of players is reached, where is no more room for speculative moves and you have to play your cards. The goal in high SPR scenarios is to dominate our opponents (read Big play strategy by Jeff Hwang). We already know, which hands our opponent is willing to get it in:
nutstraights, topset+redraw. If our opponent is loose he will also get it in with overpair/twopair+weak draw, bottom/middleset, secondnutstraight, nutflushdraw (+sidevalue). But you can rule out those ranges when you are 4way where at least 1 regular could join the party. So the range you aim to have that dominates the opponent in an allin is:
- Nutstraight + redraw (8765, 65xxdd, 6544,...)
- Topset + draw (544, Add44,..)
The bare 65xx nutstraight usually is not good enough to get it in because u risk 1) domination (another guy has you crushed with a nutstraight+redraw) and 2) duplication (another guy has the same 65xx but you both are dominated 3way by a 3rd player that has non-dominated draws)
In Plo the flop virtually resets the game, because the amount of possible flops is huge and handstrengths must be evaluated new and seperated from the preflop "handstrength". Preflop you actually have no handstrengths in plo like in holdem, but you want to have as many and good components as possible like a suited ace, a high pair or connectivity value. The bigger your cards the better.
Your preflop call is correct but also think why you play preflop the way you did, you have a nutty component (high pair) with sidevalue (flush) that may hit a strong hand you are willing to play for stacks (topset+flushdraw or topset on a dry board). Against an openraise for example I would just fold rainbow trash KK because 1 single component (set) is not enough to continue against good aggressive opponents multiway or oop. Your preflop play is dictated by flop scenarios that may occure.
On the flop you make a squeeze I assume for protection. In PLO you dont bet a hand for a single purpose (only on the river). It is better to think in terms of equity realization which leads to thinking in terms of domination and playability. If you start to construct handranges, it makes sense to always start with the nuts, and how often it is within opponents range (and your range). If you take a look at PPT you will see, the probability that at least 1 of the other 3 player has flopped the nuts with a 65xx combo is around 11,5% which is decent. You are also beaten by the A5xx straight. Other hands that may get it in have you dominated 2:1 or even worse, like set+flushdraw, set+straightdraw and so on. The nutflushdraw is always more likely than any other flushdraw so if you run into the nutflushdraw+made hand value you are dominated aswell. So if you get action from your raise, you are
1) completely dead (straights or other better made hand plus nutflushredraw)
2) dominated (bare straights, strong combo hands that have decent equity vs nuts)
In 4way pots the amount of players is reached, where is no more room for speculative moves and you have to play your cards. The goal in high SPR scenarios is to dominate our opponents (read Big play strategy by Jeff Hwang). We already know, which hands our opponent is willing to get it in:
nutstraights, topset+redraw. If our opponent is loose he will also get it in with overpair/twopair+weak draw, bottom/middleset, secondnutstraight, nutflushdraw (+sidevalue). But you can rule out those ranges when you are 4way where at least 1 regular could join the party. So the range you aim to have that dominates the opponent in an allin is:
- Nutstraight + redraw (8765, 65xxdd, 6544,...)
- Topset + draw (544, Add44,..)
The bare 65xx nutstraight usually is not good enough to get it in because u risk 1) domination (another guy has you crushed with a nutstraight+redraw) and 2) duplication (another guy has the same 65xx but you both are dominated 3way by a 3rd player that has non-dominated draws)
)Maybe I should move back to PLO10 then as thought I'd really try and be very tight at PLO25 today and try to implement some of the advice from this thread but still felt pretty clueless. Tagged quite a few hands to ask for feedback on, then just felt quite tilted as it just feels like I'm running up a treadmill when playing plo zoom as when I play holdem I can think of a few things, some may not work or whatever but at PLO I can think of nothing or anything I do think of just doesn't work whatsoever. I said a couple of posts back about someone having a nice graph at PLO50 and I would have thought it was possible to beat PLO25 but never actually see any graphs of that or like plo10 zoom. I see plenty of graphs of people beating higher stakes PLO and all stakes of NL but are there any good graphs of PLO10 and 25 zoom ??????
I was playing 19/14/8- tighter than normal
anyway these were the hands I tagged
this hand, normally I'd be raising turn, betting river or at least betting river strong, but I decided not to bet river as at this zoom plo they will call me a large amount with the kind of hand he turned up with on the river. So I kind of just have to accept losing this hand I think as I didn't make a hand by the river and bluffing gets me in a lot of trouble.
PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $24.51 (98 bb)
MP: $6.92 (28 bb)
CO: $25.51 (102 bb)
BU (Hero): $25.00 (100 bb)
SB: $28.05 (112 bb)
BB: $25.00 (100 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with K♦ A♦ T♣ Q♣
2 players fold, CO raises to $0.50, Hero 3-bets to $1.85, SB calls $1.75, 1 fold, CO calls $1.35
Flop: ($5.80) J♣ 7♠ 6♣ (3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero checks
Turn: ($5.80) 9♦ (3 players)
SB bets $2.25, CO calls $2.25, Hero calls $2.25
River: ($12.55) 2♠ (3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero checks
and then I have tagged ten other hands, and going through them is quite interesting again but I think I will stop there as I'm starting to fancy playing PLO again when I'm really not sure it is beatable.
After playing PLO and losing a few buy-ins I played some 25NL holdem zoom and I'm beating it for 4.4BB/100 after 15k hands, only playing about 30k of holdem hands now in the last few years so without much though/ trouble I am beating it, plo I've played it for the last few years and with a lot of thought and a lot of trouble I'm losing at it, so should stick with NL.
These are the graphs so it just isn't wise to play PLO
NL- nice
[IMG]
[/IMG]PLO- just want to swear at the graph
12-25-2018
, 01:01 PM
Quote:
Maybe I should move back to PLO10 then as thought I'd really try and be very tight at PLO25 today and try to implement some of the advice from this thread but still felt pretty clueless. Tagged quite a few hands to ask for feedback on, then just felt quite tilted as it just feels like I'm running up a treadmill when playing plo zoom as when I play holdem I can think of a few things, some may not work or whatever but at PLO I can think of nothing or anything I do think of just doesn't work whatsoever. I said a couple of posts back about someone having a nice graph at PLO50 and I would have thought it was possible to beat PLO25 but never actually see any graphs of that or like plo10 zoom. I see plenty of graphs of people beating higher stakes PLO and all stakes of NL but are there any good graphs of PLO10 and 25 zoom ??????
Maybe I should move back to PLO10 then as thought I'd really try and be very tight at PLO25 today and try to implement some of the advice from this thread but still felt pretty clueless. Tagged quite a few hands to ask for feedback on, then just felt quite tilted as it just feels like I'm running up a treadmill when playing plo zoom as when I play holdem I can think of a few things, some may not work or whatever but at PLO I can think of nothing or anything I do think of just doesn't work whatsoever. I said a couple of posts back about someone having a nice graph at PLO50 and I would have thought it was possible to beat PLO25 but never actually see any graphs of that or like plo10 zoom. I see plenty of graphs of people beating higher stakes PLO and all stakes of NL but are there any good graphs of PLO10 and 25 zoom ??????
Obviously you are able to beat NL10 and not able to beat PLO25. Well. Though this fact should not over influence your decision, it would be kinda "short-term-monetary" thinking.
If you stick to Holdem you still would have to improve a lot to beat NL50 and NL100.. In my opinion NL200 is really hard to beat, you have to know a lot of game theory, have a sound gameplan, ideas how to exploit player tendencies and lots of experience. Whereas if you manage to beat PLO10 it is not so far up to PLO100 where it is just another critical step to PLO200 and PLO500 by in some way still just playing "straightforward". The $/h can be much higher than in Holdem due to the fish-reg ratios in those zoom player pools. For me it does not make a big difference if I earn 300-400$ playin NL10 or if I play PLO5 for 150$ a month. The goal as the title of our challenges indicate is to reach for the big fruits, 5-10k$/month playing PLo500.
You have to improve aside the table and then apply those concepts to become a better player. Of course you need skill to beat the game.
I could recommend "Strategies to beat Smalles Stakes PLO" by Mathias Pum and the article series "PLO from Scratch" on donkr.com to get started. When you established a small income there is some material out there. I also have some content I could share with you. Improve your theory on a daily basis. Implement learning routines to get better.
Quote:
this hand, normally I'd be raising turn, betting river or at least betting river strong, but I decided not to bet river as at this zoom plo they will call me a large amount with the kind of hand he turned up with on the river. So I kind of just have to accept losing this hand I think as I didn't make a hand by the river and bluffing gets me in a lot of trouble.
PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $24.51 (98 bb)
MP: $6.92 (28 bb)
CO: $25.51 (102 bb)
BU (Hero): $25.00 (100 bb)
SB: $28.05 (112 bb)
BB: $25.00 (100 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with K♦ A♦ T♣ Q♣
2 players fold, CO raises to $0.50, Hero 3-bets to $1.85, SB calls $1.75, 1 fold, CO calls $1.35
Flop: ($5.80) J♣ 7♠ 6♣ (3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero checks
Turn: ($5.80) 9♦ (3 players)
SB bets $2.25, CO calls $2.25, Hero calls $2.25
River: ($12.55) 2♠ (3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero checks
this hand, normally I'd be raising turn, betting river or at least betting river strong, but I decided not to bet river as at this zoom plo they will call me a large amount with the kind of hand he turned up with on the river. So I kind of just have to accept losing this hand I think as I didn't make a hand by the river and bluffing gets me in a lot of trouble.
PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $24.51 (98 bb)
MP: $6.92 (28 bb)
CO: $25.51 (102 bb)
BU (Hero): $25.00 (100 bb)
SB: $28.05 (112 bb)
BB: $25.00 (100 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with K♦ A♦ T♣ Q♣
2 players fold, CO raises to $0.50, Hero 3-bets to $1.85, SB calls $1.75, 1 fold, CO calls $1.35
Flop: ($5.80) J♣ 7♠ 6♣ (3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero checks
Turn: ($5.80) 9♦ (3 players)
SB bets $2.25, CO calls $2.25, Hero calls $2.25
River: ($12.55) 2♠ (3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero checks
ok. The 3bet ip is standard. An interesting question would be, what hand range do you generally 3-bet in position?
The flop is medium wet, medium heavy. I like the flop check, your foldequity by cbetting is reduced because you are 3-way (reduced foldequity), you dont want to play for 3 streets when you get called and hit your non-nutted flush (potcontrol) and with your pivot-card by taking a freecard you can hit a bunch of cards on the turn that improve your equity by adding an additional straightdraw (improved playability on next street). These 3 factors advocate a check behind.
The turn is a relatively neutral card adding some straightdraws, completing a gutshot and the 85xx straight. The small turn lead, the call and the river check are indicators that the nuts are unlikely. A turn raise makes sense, but there is the same problem on the flop, you dont know what to do on a flush river. so calling to favourable pot odds may not be max. EV due to lack of information but it should be at least correct.
On the river blank nothing changed so far. They still might call a bluff so the checkbehind makes sense. On river if you bet for value >50% of the hands that call you must be worse than your hand and if you bluff full pot you need >50% foldequity, you can make him fold some smaller part of his range by betting smaller, when you bet halfpot you need >33% foldequity. You are not "losing" a hand when you check back the river but actually "realizing" Equity. If you have no showdownvalue and not enough foldequity to make a profitable bluff, there is nothing you can do. Look at the decision like it is an investment. You would not buy any shares if you dont know what the company is actually doing. Here it is the same. If you do not have a decent river handhistory of villain you basically do not know what he is holding and how he will react, this is called grey-area. And the way we do not investment money because lack of information is checking/folding. The main problem with checking and folding too much is if we regularly maneuvr us in situations on an early street very often and then we have to give up very often on a later street due to board texture shifts, especially out of position.
Last edited by God of War; 12-25-2018 at 01:22 PM.
12-26-2018
, 11:06 PM
Quote:
Though I recommend PLO I cannot tell you you have to play PLO or NLHE, which game to play is dependant on style and skill and what game actually makes more fun to you. But you should decide for 1 game and then stick to it. The game philosophy and theoretical approaches of both games are significantly different so there is always danger to confuse concepts that do exist but do not apply in the same way at the other game.
Obviously you are able to beat NL10 and not able to beat PLO25. Well. Though this fact should not over influence your decision, it would be kinda "short-term-monetary" thinking.
If you stick to Holdem you still would have to improve a lot to beat NL50 and NL100.. In my opinion NL200 is really hard to beat, you have to know a lot of game theory, have a sound gameplan, ideas how to exploit player tendencies and lots of experience. Whereas if you manage to beat PLO10 it is not so far up to PLO100 where it is just another critical step to PLO200 and PLO500 by in some way still just playing "straightforward". The $/h can be much higher than in Holdem due to the fish-reg ratios in those zoom player pools. For me it does not make a big difference if I earn 300-400$ playin NL10 or if I play PLO5 for 150$ a month. The goal as the title of our challenges indicate is to reach for the big fruits, 5-10k$/month playing PLo500.
You have to improve aside the table and then apply those concepts to become a better player. Of course you need skill to beat the game.
I could recommend "Strategies to beat Smalles Stakes PLO" by Mathias Pum and the article series "PLO from Scratch" on donkr.com to get started. When you established a small income there is some material out there. I also have some content I could share with you. Improve your theory on a daily basis. Implement learning routines to get better.
ok. The 3bet ip is standard. An interesting question would be, what hand range do you generally 3-bet in position?
The flop is medium wet, medium heavy. I like the flop check, your foldequity by cbetting is reduced because you are 3-way (reduced foldequity), you dont want to play for 3 streets when you get called and hit your non-nutted flush (potcontrol) and with your pivot-card by taking a freecard you can hit a bunch of cards on the turn that improve your equity by adding an additional straightdraw (improved playability on next street). These 3 factors advocate a check behind.
The turn is a relatively neutral card adding some straightdraws, completing a gutshot and the 85xx straight. The small turn lead, the call and the river check are indicators that the nuts are unlikely. A turn raise makes sense, but there is the same problem on the flop, you dont know what to do on a flush river. so calling to favourable pot odds may not be max. EV due to lack of information but it should be at least correct.
On the river blank nothing changed so far. They still might call a bluff so the checkbehind makes sense. On river if you bet for value >50% of the hands that call you must be worse than your hand and if you bluff full pot you need >50% foldequity, you can make him fold some smaller part of his range by betting smaller, when you bet halfpot you need >33% foldequity. You are not "losing" a hand when you check back the river but actually "realizing" Equity. If you have no showdownvalue and not enough foldequity to make a profitable bluff, there is nothing you can do. Look at the decision like it is an investment. You would not buy any shares if you dont know what the company is actually doing. Here it is the same. If you do not have a decent river handhistory of villain you basically do not know what he is holding and how he will react, this is called grey-area. And the way we do not investment money because lack of information is checking/folding. The main problem with checking and folding too much is if we regularly maneuvr us in situations on an early street very often and then we have to give up very often on a later street due to board texture shifts, especially out of position.
Obviously you are able to beat NL10 and not able to beat PLO25. Well. Though this fact should not over influence your decision, it would be kinda "short-term-monetary" thinking.
If you stick to Holdem you still would have to improve a lot to beat NL50 and NL100.. In my opinion NL200 is really hard to beat, you have to know a lot of game theory, have a sound gameplan, ideas how to exploit player tendencies and lots of experience. Whereas if you manage to beat PLO10 it is not so far up to PLO100 where it is just another critical step to PLO200 and PLO500 by in some way still just playing "straightforward". The $/h can be much higher than in Holdem due to the fish-reg ratios in those zoom player pools. For me it does not make a big difference if I earn 300-400$ playin NL10 or if I play PLO5 for 150$ a month. The goal as the title of our challenges indicate is to reach for the big fruits, 5-10k$/month playing PLo500.
You have to improve aside the table and then apply those concepts to become a better player. Of course you need skill to beat the game.
I could recommend "Strategies to beat Smalles Stakes PLO" by Mathias Pum and the article series "PLO from Scratch" on donkr.com to get started. When you established a small income there is some material out there. I also have some content I could share with you. Improve your theory on a daily basis. Implement learning routines to get better.
ok. The 3bet ip is standard. An interesting question would be, what hand range do you generally 3-bet in position?
The flop is medium wet, medium heavy. I like the flop check, your foldequity by cbetting is reduced because you are 3-way (reduced foldequity), you dont want to play for 3 streets when you get called and hit your non-nutted flush (potcontrol) and with your pivot-card by taking a freecard you can hit a bunch of cards on the turn that improve your equity by adding an additional straightdraw (improved playability on next street). These 3 factors advocate a check behind.
The turn is a relatively neutral card adding some straightdraws, completing a gutshot and the 85xx straight. The small turn lead, the call and the river check are indicators that the nuts are unlikely. A turn raise makes sense, but there is the same problem on the flop, you dont know what to do on a flush river. so calling to favourable pot odds may not be max. EV due to lack of information but it should be at least correct.
On the river blank nothing changed so far. They still might call a bluff so the checkbehind makes sense. On river if you bet for value >50% of the hands that call you must be worse than your hand and if you bluff full pot you need >50% foldequity, you can make him fold some smaller part of his range by betting smaller, when you bet halfpot you need >33% foldequity. You are not "losing" a hand when you check back the river but actually "realizing" Equity. If you have no showdownvalue and not enough foldequity to make a profitable bluff, there is nothing you can do. Look at the decision like it is an investment. You would not buy any shares if you dont know what the company is actually doing. Here it is the same. If you do not have a decent river handhistory of villain you basically do not know what he is holding and how he will react, this is called grey-area. And the way we do not investment money because lack of information is checking/folding. The main problem with checking and folding too much is if we regularly maneuvr us in situations on an early street very often and then we have to give up very often on a later street due to board texture shifts, especially out of position.
kind of enjoying playing a bit of both games at the moment it seems, agree with what your saying about PLO though and that's a good idea not to be short term thinking when deciding what game to play and yeah sometimes i think I can play okay at PLO and then other times I probably lack some of the basics so I should look through some of the stuff you recommend, think I remember going through some of that PLO from scratch a couple of years ago if it was out then, would definitely be interested in your other content.
the hand range I generally 3bet in position would be the AA, AKJQ, sometimes AKK, a double suited run down as long as about 10 is the highest card etc and if I tilt even more hands than that.
nice hand summary and comparing it to like an investment, pretty cool way to think about the hands, sometimes I do wonder when like >50% fold equity is said, that just means the opponent is likely to fold over 50% of the time and it's a guess I have to make but can't actually be measured? seems like a silly question but when I hear people talking about fold equity it sounds like a certain thing when it is a guess from what hands they could turn up with in a situation I think.
thanks for the wise words in that other thread
So last couple of days I tried PLO25 non zoom and my EV line went okay and it did feel beatable compared to PLO25zoom so I might stick to non zoom when I play PLO......... here is the graph of that so far
[IMG]
[/IMG]and this is the graph of my omaha so far, it has surprised me how much I can run away from EV, it would help if I was actually a winning player but when people say you can run so many buy-ins under EV i didn't think it would happen to me. Also wondering how much more and how much the EV line and winnings line can actually go away from each other. Could end up being a great thing for me as seeing how far I can be away from EV so early in this thread shows what can happen rather than maybe getting to a decent stake one day and going miles under EV there.
anyway here is the graph, 27 buy-ins under EV at PLO10 zoom
22 buy-ins under EV at PLO25 zoom
and 11 buy-ins under EV at PLO25
that's 60 buy-ins under EV, still seems crazy to me. If you can run 60 buy-ins below EV, say you had to play a stake eg PLO200 live and it was the lowest stake so you couldn't move down, and you were a fairly average recreational player, how big a bankroll would you need if you can run 60 buy-ins below EV? 200 buy-ins seems small if you can go 60 buy-ins below EV............ like 500 buy-ins would be more comfortable
[IMG]
[/IMG]
12-27-2018
, 07:27 AM
Ok. You could think about your range more deeply when you start to write it down in an excel sheet. Start with the openraising ranges. I can promise you, if you get more into details, that alone will mean hours of work. Your range looks like this:
AA, AKQJ:xx, AKK, (9876+, T986+, T976+):xxyy
That would be 3,25%. A nice point to start.
Lots of profit comes from playin in position where our opponent will face difficult decision in a grey area. This is also in 3bp when our opponent has no clue about our 3bet range so it makes sense to 3-bet light and just fold to a 4bet unless we have an idea how to encounter light 4-bets. We will continue with that later. When you see someone openraising loose and then makes mistake like
a) folding to 3bets too much
b) calling then playing fit-fold on the flop
c) calling then stack-off light without proper handvalue on the flop
you can expand your light 3-betting range by adding:
strong KK's like KK[54+]ds and KKBBds.
best QQ's like AQQBds
connected high pairs at least singlesuited like QJJTss
middle connected doublepairs like JJ88ss
doublesuited Ace with 3 connectors like A543+ds
and eventually high gappy singlesuited hands like
KJT9ss and QT97ss
Do not just read that raange and think "aha, thats interesting" and then forget about it. Memorize it until you can say it loud. Play a session and wait for the moment you see an openraise in front of you where you have that start hand and try to execute. Do that over and over again everytime this happens. Knowledge without application is useless.
Quote:
nice hand summary and comparing it to like an investment, pretty cool way to think about the hands, sometimes I do wonder when like >50% fold equity is said, that just means the opponent is likely to fold over 50% of the time and it's a guess I have to make but can't actually be measured? seems like a silly question but when I hear people talking about fold equity it sounds like a certain thing when it is a guess from what hands they could turn up with in a situation I think.
thanks for the wise words in that other thread
nice hand summary and comparing it to like an investment, pretty cool way to think about the hands, sometimes I do wonder when like >50% fold equity is said, that just means the opponent is likely to fold over 50% of the time and it's a guess I have to make but can't actually be measured? seems like a silly question but when I hear people talking about fold equity it sounds like a certain thing when it is a guess from what hands they could turn up with in a situation I think.
thanks for the wise words in that other thread
Quote:
and this is the graph of my omaha so far, it has surprised me how much I can run away from EV, it would help if I was actually a winning player but when people say you can run so many buy-ins under EV i didn't think it would happen to me. Also wondering how much more and how much the EV line and winnings line can actually go away from each other. Could end up being a great thing for me as seeing how far I can be away from EV so early in this thread shows what can happen rather than maybe getting to a decent stake one day and going miles under EV there.
anyway here is the graph, 27 buy-ins under EV at PLO10 zoom
22 buy-ins under EV at PLO25 zoom
and 11 buy-ins under EV at PLO25
that's 60 buy-ins under EV, still seems crazy to me. If you can run 60 buy-ins below EV, say you had to play a stake eg PLO200 live and it was the lowest stake so you couldn't move down, and you were a fairly average recreational player, how big a bankroll would you need if you can run 60 buy-ins below EV? 200 buy-ins seems small if you can go 60 buy-ins below EV............ like 500 buy-ins would be more comfortable
[IMG][/IMG]
and this is the graph of my omaha so far, it has surprised me how much I can run away from EV, it would help if I was actually a winning player but when people say you can run so many buy-ins under EV i didn't think it would happen to me. Also wondering how much more and how much the EV line and winnings line can actually go away from each other. Could end up being a great thing for me as seeing how far I can be away from EV so early in this thread shows what can happen rather than maybe getting to a decent stake one day and going miles under EV there.
anyway here is the graph, 27 buy-ins under EV at PLO10 zoom
22 buy-ins under EV at PLO25 zoom
and 11 buy-ins under EV at PLO25
that's 60 buy-ins under EV, still seems crazy to me. If you can run 60 buy-ins below EV, say you had to play a stake eg PLO200 live and it was the lowest stake so you couldn't move down, and you were a fairly average recreational player, how big a bankroll would you need if you can run 60 buy-ins below EV? 200 buy-ins seems small if you can go 60 buy-ins below EV............ like 500 buy-ins would be more comfortable
[IMG]
[/IMG]
For the graph I have bad news. Don't be biased by the Allin-graph. It only shows the Equity % of allin situations. That means you still could have lots of bb (green graph) due to bad calls or bets that were not an allin. So your graph does not mean bad luck but maybe also bad play.
Don't be so focused on your graphs. They should not influence you in your decisions anyways. If you do not have the bankroll, move down. If you have it, move up. If you win be happy and analyzse your game to see if it is luck or good play, when it is good play look where the opponent made the mistake, see if the mistake is typical, is it a player pool tendency? If you lose, calm yourself and analyse your game if it is bad luck or bad play, when it is bad luck there is nothin u can do when it is bad play look where the play is made, why and then fix it. Go into the hand every time and look for the mistakes and try to reduce them until you are happy with the way you played the session, first usually by tighten up generally. You can think better about the outcome of hands if you are aware of your own hand ranges, thats why I told you to start making your ranges and learn them, that will increase your range awareness ingame. Make session reviews, so when you have a bad graph u still can be happy because your session went well. If you have that process, try to find new plays which u can reason why they are profitabel and implement then into your game. Dont play too many tables.
Last edited by God of War; 12-27-2018 at 07:48 AM.
12-29-2018
, 11:25 PM
Quote:
Ok. You could think about your range more deeply when you start to write it down in an excel sheet. Start with the openraising ranges. I can promise you, if you get more into details, that alone will mean hours of work. Your range looks like this:
AA, AKQJ:xx, AKK, (9876+, T986+, T976+):xxyy
That would be 3,25%. A nice point to start.
Lots of profit comes from playin in position where our opponent will face difficult decision in a grey area. This is also in 3bp when our opponent has no clue about our 3bet range so it makes sense to 3-bet light and just fold to a 4bet unless we have an idea how to encounter light 4-bets. We will continue with that later. When you see someone openraising loose and then makes mistake like
a) folding to 3bets too much
b) calling then playing fit-fold on the flop
c) calling then stack-off light without proper handvalue on the flop
you can expand your light 3-betting range by adding:
strong KK's like KK[54+]ds and KKBBds.
best QQ's like AQQBds
connected high pairs at least singlesuited like QJJTss
middle connected doublepairs like JJ88ss
doublesuited Ace with 3 connectors like A543+ds
and eventually high gappy singlesuited hands like
KJT9ss and QT97ss
Do not just read that raange and think "aha, thats interesting" and then forget about it. Memorize it until you can say it loud. Play a session and wait for the moment you see an openraise in front of you where you have that start hand and try to execute. Do that over and over again everytime this happens. Knowledge without application is useless.
the way to measure it is by hand-reading. You assume hand ranges for each action startin from the flop. Then estimate what he would do with the hands left in his range otr and finally depending on that calculate the max EV of actions you could take. The river is most difficult but most expensive so I would start playing the river just straightforward and with experience u can try some calls and bets by intuition and then remember how it worked and learn for similar spots in the future like bluffing certain cards or thinly valuebetting against hands that might call.
PLO25 regular tables ofc is softer. If you have the bankroll then go ahead and play it, I still would recommend to move down. Psychologically it's the best to beat the stake and then move up with the money you earned from other player than risking your own money and getting tilt. You need a good attitude in the moment you get tilt to be aware of your own thoughts and emotion and "rewrite" those. My biggest edge in my player pool is, that I basically never tilt. Some hands I might play sloppy because of low focus but a bad decision or lost hand never leads to another bad play.
For the graph I have bad news. Don't be biased by the Allin-graph. It only shows the Equity % of allin situations. That means you still could have lots of bb (green graph) due to bad calls or bets that were not an allin. So your graph does not mean bad luck but maybe also bad play.
Don't be so focused on your graphs. They should not influence you in your decisions anyways. If you do not have the bankroll, move down. If you have it, move up. If you win be happy and analyzse your game to see if it is luck or good play, when it is good play look where the opponent made the mistake, see if the mistake is typical, is it a player pool tendency? If you lose, calm yourself and analyse your game if it is bad luck or bad play, when it is bad luck there is nothin u can do when it is bad play look where the play is made, why and then fix it. Go into the hand every time and look for the mistakes and try to reduce them until you are happy with the way you played the session, first usually by tighten up generally. You can think better about the outcome of hands if you are aware of your own hand ranges, thats why I told you to start making your ranges and learn them, that will increase your range awareness ingame. Make session reviews, so when you have a bad graph u still can be happy because your session went well. If you have that process, try to find new plays which u can reason why they are profitabel and implement then into your game. Dont play too many tables.
AA, AKQJ:xx, AKK, (9876+, T986+, T976+):xxyy
That would be 3,25%. A nice point to start.
Lots of profit comes from playin in position where our opponent will face difficult decision in a grey area. This is also in 3bp when our opponent has no clue about our 3bet range so it makes sense to 3-bet light and just fold to a 4bet unless we have an idea how to encounter light 4-bets. We will continue with that later. When you see someone openraising loose and then makes mistake like
a) folding to 3bets too much
b) calling then playing fit-fold on the flop
c) calling then stack-off light without proper handvalue on the flop
you can expand your light 3-betting range by adding:
strong KK's like KK[54+]ds and KKBBds.
best QQ's like AQQBds
connected high pairs at least singlesuited like QJJTss
middle connected doublepairs like JJ88ss
doublesuited Ace with 3 connectors like A543+ds
and eventually high gappy singlesuited hands like
KJT9ss and QT97ss
Do not just read that raange and think "aha, thats interesting" and then forget about it. Memorize it until you can say it loud. Play a session and wait for the moment you see an openraise in front of you where you have that start hand and try to execute. Do that over and over again everytime this happens. Knowledge without application is useless.
the way to measure it is by hand-reading. You assume hand ranges for each action startin from the flop. Then estimate what he would do with the hands left in his range otr and finally depending on that calculate the max EV of actions you could take. The river is most difficult but most expensive so I would start playing the river just straightforward and with experience u can try some calls and bets by intuition and then remember how it worked and learn for similar spots in the future like bluffing certain cards or thinly valuebetting against hands that might call.
PLO25 regular tables ofc is softer. If you have the bankroll then go ahead and play it, I still would recommend to move down. Psychologically it's the best to beat the stake and then move up with the money you earned from other player than risking your own money and getting tilt. You need a good attitude in the moment you get tilt to be aware of your own thoughts and emotion and "rewrite" those. My biggest edge in my player pool is, that I basically never tilt. Some hands I might play sloppy because of low focus but a bad decision or lost hand never leads to another bad play.
For the graph I have bad news. Don't be biased by the Allin-graph. It only shows the Equity % of allin situations. That means you still could have lots of bb (green graph) due to bad calls or bets that were not an allin. So your graph does not mean bad luck but maybe also bad play.
Don't be so focused on your graphs. They should not influence you in your decisions anyways. If you do not have the bankroll, move down. If you have it, move up. If you win be happy and analyzse your game to see if it is luck or good play, when it is good play look where the opponent made the mistake, see if the mistake is typical, is it a player pool tendency? If you lose, calm yourself and analyse your game if it is bad luck or bad play, when it is bad luck there is nothin u can do when it is bad play look where the play is made, why and then fix it. Go into the hand every time and look for the mistakes and try to reduce them until you are happy with the way you played the session, first usually by tighten up generally. You can think better about the outcome of hands if you are aware of your own hand ranges, thats why I told you to start making your ranges and learn them, that will increase your range awareness ingame. Make session reviews, so when you have a bad graph u still can be happy because your session went well. If you have that process, try to find new plays which u can reason why they are profitabel and implement then into your game. Dont play too many tables.
wow thanks for another big reply again
yeah the range work does sound like it would take hours, don't really think I have the time to go to deep into it as I would like so hopefully will be able to pick it up as I go, hopefully my ranges don't need to change too much, interesting stuff about the 3betting, I'd like to think I've pretty much memorize what ranges you said and hopefully I can do better there.
might as well stay at PLO25 now as the bankroll for it is decent at the moment. I try not to tilt and go bananas these days and yeah I think I need to work on it as it can be quite subtle at times.
quite like my graphs
just seem a bit obsessed at times to try and get the lines moving in the right direction but should probably look at them less when playing. Have played a bit more of NL25zoom and PLO25
here is an interesting NL hand
pre flop I think I'm okay? on the flop I bet because I think if he has AA KK QQ he leads so I put him on AK really
when he raises it just seems odd as I don't think he has AA KK QQ so much and maybe he has something like A9 suited or even still AK so I thought for a bit and called
PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $13.95 (56 bb)
MP: $70.71 (283 bb)
CO: $29.82 (119 bb)
BU: $32.35 (129 bb)
SB: $31.36 (125 bb)
BB (Hero): $25.00 (100 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with J♣ J♠
UTG raises to $0.75, MP calls $0.75, 2 players fold, SB 3-bets to $3.25, Hero calls $3, 1 fold, MP calls $2.50
Flop: ($10.50) 9♣ 5♠ 7♥ (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $5.80, MP folds, SB raises to $28.11 (all-in), Hero calls $15.95 (all-in)
and these are three omaha hands I tagged
this hand I suppose there is a good argument for folding preflop as this is exactly how you can get in trouble but I'm not sure, on the flop though I have top pair and a straight draw so I thought I should easily go all-in on the flop but a couple of times in the exact kind of situation and I'm drawing bad.
PokerStars, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $19.19 (77 bb)
MP: $44.64 (179 bb)
CO (Hero): $25.09 (100 bb)
BU: $31.30 (125 bb)
SB: $60.54 (242 bb)
BB: $35.40 (142 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with 7♣ T♦ 6♥ Q♣
2 players fold, Hero raises to $0.85, 1 fold, SB 3-bets to $2.80, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.95
Flop: ($5.85) 5♣ Q♥ 8♥ (2 players)
SB bets $5.60, Hero raises to $22.29 (all-in), SB calls $16.69
this hand is a situation that comes up fairly often, pots quite big, you have top pair with decent over cards probably up vs AA so should you fold with so much in the pot? I will try and do a simulation myself
PokerStars, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 5 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $24.65 (99 bb)
CO: $41.39 (166 bb)
BU (Hero): $40.90 (164 bb)
SB: $24.75 (99 bb)
BB: $75.09 (300 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with Q♥ J♦ K♠ T♦
2 players fold, Hero raises to $0.85, SB 3-bets to $2.80, BB 4-bets to $9.25, Hero calls $8.40, 1 fold
Flop: ($21.30) T♠ 2♥ 5♣ (2 players)
BB bets $20.39, BU (Hero) folds
and this is the final hand I tagged, think I have to fold AA here
PokerStars, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker
UTG: $108.37 (433 bb)
MP (Hero): $30.67 (123 bb)
CO: $48.15 (193 bb)
BU: $25.00 (100 bb)
SB: $88.93 (356 bb)
BB: $35.10 (140 bb)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is MP with A♠ 7♣ 5♦ A♥
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.85, 1 fold, BTN 3-bets to $2.90, 2 players fold, Hero 4-bets to $9.05, BTN calls $6.15
Flop: ($18.45) K♥ Q♥ T♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $15.95 (all-in), MP (Hero) folds
and might as well post my graphs as the green line on the PLO one has started to go up for once
NL25zoom .......... only beating it for 2bb so far
[IMG]
[/IMG]and PLO25
[IMG]
[/IMG]
01-04-2019
, 03:41 PM
so since my last update, made a hash of things.
plo25 was okay, NL25 was okay and was beating it for 5bb/100 after 23k hands and thought I was beating it I started playing NL50 which also seemed okay and had more than 20 buy-ins in my account.
then just thought PLO50zoom is beatable as I've seen a graph and the rake is a bit lower so played it just hoping to dip my toe in and only be up or down a couple of buy-ins but that didn't happen and just blew the majority of my balance.
Not the worst thing I've done and guess this happens to the majority of people who play PLOzoom so not going to be too harsh on myself as running $900 below ev and raking $1700 are some costs faced and a 70k hand effort is not a bad effort for me anyway.
won't play plo until a fair amount of time in the future and will make sure I get lessons before the next time I play as I have realised I'm also not very good. did kind of think to myself that I was half decent at PLO and not really sure why I thought this.
On the positive side, plo has gone worse than thought in this thread but surprisingly NL has gone better than I would have thought it would go so will stick to that until I've had some PLO lessons but that will be a while in the future.
down to $18.73 and don't have the funds to make a decent deposit this month, thought I had got rid of the soft side of me losing too much over the last 5 months but it happened again. Losing too much money once in 5 months though is a big improvement for me so hopefully can keep working on having better bankroll management and it's only just over $1k which is no big deal really but slows me down when trying to climb stakes.
so with the $18.73 as soon as I have 4 buy-ins I will play the NL stakes from 2NL-25NL, moving up and down between the stakes and reevaluate at $1k, this should always leave me $20/ 10 buy-ins of 2NL which it would be hard to completely go to $0 but if I do then I'll be back at the end of this month with a decent deposit and will concentrate on NL.
here is a graph of everything so far anyway.
[IMG]
[/IMG]
plo25 was okay, NL25 was okay and was beating it for 5bb/100 after 23k hands and thought I was beating it I started playing NL50 which also seemed okay and had more than 20 buy-ins in my account.
then just thought PLO50zoom is beatable as I've seen a graph and the rake is a bit lower so played it just hoping to dip my toe in and only be up or down a couple of buy-ins but that didn't happen and just blew the majority of my balance.
Not the worst thing I've done and guess this happens to the majority of people who play PLOzoom so not going to be too harsh on myself as running $900 below ev and raking $1700 are some costs faced and a 70k hand effort is not a bad effort for me anyway.
won't play plo until a fair amount of time in the future and will make sure I get lessons before the next time I play as I have realised I'm also not very good. did kind of think to myself that I was half decent at PLO and not really sure why I thought this.
On the positive side, plo has gone worse than thought in this thread but surprisingly NL has gone better than I would have thought it would go so will stick to that until I've had some PLO lessons but that will be a while in the future.
down to $18.73 and don't have the funds to make a decent deposit this month, thought I had got rid of the soft side of me losing too much over the last 5 months but it happened again. Losing too much money once in 5 months though is a big improvement for me so hopefully can keep working on having better bankroll management and it's only just over $1k which is no big deal really but slows me down when trying to climb stakes.
so with the $18.73 as soon as I have 4 buy-ins I will play the NL stakes from 2NL-25NL, moving up and down between the stakes and reevaluate at $1k, this should always leave me $20/ 10 buy-ins of 2NL which it would be hard to completely go to $0 but if I do then I'll be back at the end of this month with a decent deposit and will concentrate on NL.
here is a graph of everything so far anyway.
[IMG]
[/IMG]
01-06-2019
, 09:09 PM
yeah haha couldn't believe it, started taking it more seriously and couldn't win
last couple of days I'm pretty pleased as seem to have steadied myself after the gambling attack the other day
with the playing 4 tables as soon as four buy-ins are avaliable, leaving $20 for NL2 it has gone well going from $18 to 2NL,5NL,10NL,25NL,10NL,5NL,10NL,25NL,10NL,5NL,10NL ,25NL,10NL,25NL and about $200 now so hopefully I can run okay and not have to go back down to 10NL.
have a 95000 point box to open in 14000 points time on pokerstars and the biggest box I've opened before is about 20000 points I think so wondering what is going to be in there, got to be about $50 surely but wouldn't be surprised if it is $3 and 176 points.
so my plan is just to work this $200 into a $1000 playing hopefully mainly 25NL at the moment, back to work tomorrow so won't be able to play as much.
here is the graph since the last update
[IMG]
[/IMG]
last couple of days I'm pretty pleased as seem to have steadied myself after the gambling attack the other day
with the playing 4 tables as soon as four buy-ins are avaliable, leaving $20 for NL2 it has gone well going from $18 to 2NL,5NL,10NL,25NL,10NL,5NL,10NL,25NL,10NL,5NL,10NL ,25NL,10NL,25NL and about $200 now so hopefully I can run okay and not have to go back down to 10NL.
have a 95000 point box to open in 14000 points time on pokerstars and the biggest box I've opened before is about 20000 points I think so wondering what is going to be in there, got to be about $50 surely but wouldn't be surprised if it is $3 and 176 points.
so my plan is just to work this $200 into a $1000 playing hopefully mainly 25NL at the moment, back to work tomorrow so won't be able to play as much.
here is the graph since the last update
[IMG]
[/IMG]
01-11-2019
, 04:39 AM
played a few more hands
10NL has gone really well since playing it in this thread, 25NL, pretty much break-even so there must be something I'm doing good at 10NL and bad at 25NL so need to work out what that is. Bankroll for it might be one issue so going to wait until I have more of a proper bankroll to play 25NL because even if i did start beating it for like 5bb/100 I think I can beat 10NL for more than 2.5x what I'd be able to beat 25NL so there isn't much point playing that stake but suppose I have to if I want to move up to higher than 25NL at some point. So for the next couple of weeks will stick to 10NL.
released that 95000 point box on pokerstars, the one box earned this year so far for about $754 in rake. Got the equivalent of $16, I do like the pokerstars zoom games though they feel more like rush poker was a few years ago on full tilt- fast paced.
here is the 10NL and 25NL graph so far
[IMG]
[/IMG]
[IMG]
[/IMG]
10NL has gone really well since playing it in this thread, 25NL, pretty much break-even so there must be something I'm doing good at 10NL and bad at 25NL so need to work out what that is. Bankroll for it might be one issue so going to wait until I have more of a proper bankroll to play 25NL because even if i did start beating it for like 5bb/100 I think I can beat 10NL for more than 2.5x what I'd be able to beat 25NL so there isn't much point playing that stake but suppose I have to if I want to move up to higher than 25NL at some point. So for the next couple of weeks will stick to 10NL.
released that 95000 point box on pokerstars, the one box earned this year so far for about $754 in rake. Got the equivalent of $16, I do like the pokerstars zoom games though they feel more like rush poker was a few years ago on full tilt- fast paced.
here is the 10NL and 25NL graph so far
[IMG]
[/IMG][IMG]
[/IMG]
01-12-2019
, 11:39 AM
Quote:
in for the PLO part
you probably have too many holdem patterns that are not good in PLO, if you post stats i can take a look if i see any major leaks
you can achieve 2-3x bigger winrate on PLO then NLH at these stakes, so you probably need to work on reading boards, putting people on a range and using a lot of spots where you can easily take a hand with a bluff.
GL
you probably have too many holdem patterns that are not good in PLO, if you post stats i can take a look if i see any major leaks
you can achieve 2-3x bigger winrate on PLO then NLH at these stakes, so you probably need to work on reading boards, putting people on a range and using a lot of spots where you can easily take a hand with a bluff.
GL
yeah i do feel more confident at NL so maybe that's one of the reasons I'm playing PLO bad. Do you even think at zoom with such high rake it can be beaten for more than NL?
here are the stats from the PLO played so far
[IMG]
[/IMG]the plo25 stake I'm winning at over a smallish amount of hands, even though I was playing high vpip it felt beatable as it was non zoom and some players have 70+ vpip on non zoom tables, but maybe I'm kidding myself if that high is okay but a bit higher than usual may be okay
thanks for the offer of doing that and cheers for the GL
think I'm going to stick mainly to NL at the moment and come back to omaha with more $ and hopefully when I know what I'm doing a bit more
Last edited by Gillingham; 01-12-2019 at 11:43 AM.
Reason: adding stuff