Thanks a lot for the offer I'll take you up on that yeah I do try and post the hands from a session that are the most challenging so hopefully I'm not quite as bad as I seem from the hands posted but yeah there is a lot I don't understand and need to improve on, PLO seems so complex at times.

Thanks again Tobjo


Played a thousand hands today and felt like it was a decent thousand hands. These are the hands that got tagged.

this hand I just wonder if I should be 3betting pre

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $14.51 (145 bb)
MP: $3.05 (31 bb)
CO: $10.00 (100 bb)
BU (Hero): $10.15 (102 bb)
SB: $11.62 (116 bb)
BB: $13.05 (131 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with 9♥ K♥ 5♠ K♠
UTG raises to $0.35, MP calls $0.35, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $1.55, SB calls $1.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.20, MP calls $1.20

Flop: ($6.30) 3♠ 9♣ 2♠ (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP bets $1.50 (all-in), Hero raises to $8.60 (all-in), SB folds, UTG calls $8.60


this hand I thought was a fairly easy fold at the time but looking back at it I'm not so sure

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG (Hero): $42.31 (423 bb)
MP: $5.10 (51 bb)
CO: $25.39 (254 bb)
BU: $28.77 (288 bb)
SB: $3.41 (34 bb)
BB: $16.14 (161 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with A♠ A♦ 6♥ Q♠
Hero raises to $0.35, 2 players fold, BTN calls $0.35, 1 fold, BB calls $0.25

Flop: ($1.10) Q♣ Q♦ K♣ (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.82, BTN calls $0.82, BB raises to $3.20, UTG (Hero) folds, BU folds

and this hand I'm just beating nothing by the river against his fairly tight stats so it's just an easy fold I think

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $9.25 (93 bb)
MP: $17.18 (172 bb)
CO (Hero): $44.15 (442 bb)
BU: $36.09 (361 bb)
SB: $16.26 (163 bb)
BB: $66.95 (670 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with A♠ 6♣ 5♣ Q♠
2 players fold, Hero raises to $0.35, BTN calls $0.35, SB calls $0.30, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.15) 8♠ J♠ 6♥ (3 players)
SB bets $0.87, Hero calls $0.87, BTN calls $0.87

Turn: ($3.76) A♣ (3 players)
SB bets $2.84, Hero calls $2.84, BU folds

River: ($9.44) A♦ (2 players)
SB bets $7.14, CO (Hero) folds

this was today's session as a graph

[IMG][/IMG]

and this is PLO10 so far

[IMG][/IMG]

played again last night, went okay and the EV line went up about $20, here are some hands

this hand I'm wondering should I 3bet pre, should I cbet flop and then did I make the right fold on the turn

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $30.78 (308 bb)
MP: $12.45 (125 bb)
CO: $9.85 (99 bb)
BU: $13.63 (136 bb)
SB: $10.87 (109 bb)
BB (Hero): $10.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with A♣ 2♣ A♦ A♠
2 players fold, CO raises to $0.30, BTN calls $0.30, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $1.25, CO calls $0.95, BTN calls $0.95

Flop: ($3.80) 5♣ 8♥ J♥ (3 players)
Hero bets $1.90, CO calls $1.90, BTN calls $1.90

Turn: ($9.50) K♣ (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN bets $4.55, BB (Hero) folds, CO raises to $6.70 (all-in), BTN calls $2.15

pretty much the same with this hand, three streets where I'm thinking should I have called pre, then flop, then folded turn

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $7.86 (79 bb)
MP: $11.61 (116 bb)
CO: $10.00 (100 bb)
BU (Hero): $10.00 (100 bb)
SB: $8.84 (88 bb)
BB: $20.19 (202 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with Q♦ K♦ A♠ J♥
3 players fold, Hero raises to $0.35, SB 3-bets to $1.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.80

Flop: ($2.40) K♥ A♣ J♦ (2 players)
SB bets $2.30, Hero calls $2.30

Turn: ($7) 2♦ (2 players)
SB bets $5.39 (all-in), BU (Hero) folds


and this hand I guess I'm just behind by the river

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $19.55 (196 bb)
MP: $10.15 (102 bb)
CO (Hero): $16.37 (164 bb)
BU: $10.94 (109 bb)
SB: $17.41 (174 bb)
BB: $10.15 (102 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with 4♥ 6♣ A♣ 7♥
UTG raises to $0.35, MP calls $0.35, Hero calls $0.35, 1 fold, SB calls $0.30, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.50) 2♠ 8♦ 5♥ (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.50) 3♥ (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero bets $1.27, 2 players fold, MP calls $1.27

River: ($4.04) 3♠ (2 players)
MP bets $3.87, CO (Hero) folds


here is the plo10 graph


[IMG][/IMG]

Great consistency OP!

From the looks of these hand histories it seems like you really understand what your pre flop ranges should look like from each position, IMO this is SO important and something many players struggle with in the beginning. Many problems players experience post flop originate in their pre-flop hand selection.

In PLO there are so many double suited and paired hands that look pretty and every bone in your body is telling you to VPIP but you just have to fold them...

Why is fold pre-flop not an option? It's not exactly easy to play post flop on most boards.

ah thanks for the compliment +EVillain I have changed my pre flop ranges a fair amount in PLO10 as in PLO2 and 5 I could play a lot of bad hands and get away with it and at PLO10 I started losing quickly. haha yeah I do struggle not to vpip some good looking hands like the one I'll post today that got me in a tricky hand, and what you say about vpip is a good point as when I'm losing even over a short period sometimes I think it might be down to vpip being wrong and change the hands I'm playing.

That's a good point, hadn't actually thought of that. I guess with my hand it's not really going to be better than a pair of AA often, so although it might be best at the start of the hand, being out of position and not going to improve I'll often be behind by the end, so folding could be the best way to play it, think I'd find it hard to actually fold AAA though just in case i did get a set or a flush even though folding might be best. Thanks for showing another way to look at the hand Masq


here is the only hand I tagged from today was pretty sure it was a hand I played terribly at the time

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG (Hero): $12.06 (121 bb)
MP: $12.71 (127 bb)
CO: $9.85 (99 bb)
BU: $11.55 (116 bb)
SB: $13.45 (135 bb)
BB: $6.27 (63 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with Q♥ K♣ 9♥ K♥
Hero raises to $0.35, MP calls $0.35, CO calls $0.35, BTN calls $0.35, SB calls $0.30, BB 3-bets to $2.45, Hero calls $2.10, 1 fold, CO calls $2.10, BTN calls $2.10, SB calls $2.10

Flop: ($12.60) 9♦ 3♣ 4♥ (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $3.82 (all-in), Hero calls $3.82, 2 players fold, SB raises to $11 (all-in), Hero calls $5.79 (all-in)


but here is the same hand again, after thinking I played it badly, looking at my opponents hands maybe it wasn't so bad after all, still not really sure as there was some bad play going on from other players in the hand too but I'd probably still play the hand differently next time.

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG (Hero): $12.06 (121 bb)
MP: $12.71 (127 bb)
CO: $9.85 (99 bb)
BU: $11.55 (116 bb)
SB: $13.45 (135 bb)
BB: $6.27 (63 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with Q♥ K♣ 9♥ K♥
Hero raises to $0.35, MP calls $0.35, CO calls $0.35, BTN calls $0.35, SB calls $0.30, BB 3-bets to $2.45, Hero calls $2.10, 1 fold, CO calls $2.10, BTN calls $2.10, SB calls $2.10

Flop: ($12.60) 9♦ 3♣ 4♥ (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $3.82 (all-in), Hero calls $3.82, 2 players fold, SB raises to $11 (all-in), Hero calls $5.79 (all-in)

Turn: ($35.64) 9♠ (3 players, 3 all-in)

River: ($35.64) 8♦ (3 players, 3 all-in)

Total pot: $35.64 (Rake: $1.50)

Showdown:
SB shows 2♠ 3♦ 4♦ 3♠ (a full house, Threes full of Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 30%, Flop: 76%, Turn: 86%, River: 100%)

BB shows K♦ 4♠ 8♥ 6♦ (two pair, Nines and Eights)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 26%, Flop: 12%, Turn: <1%, River: 0%)

UTG (Hero) shows Q♥ K♣ 9♥ K♥ (three of a kind, Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 45%, Flop: 12%, Turn: 14%, River: 0%)

SB wins $34.14


here is the graph of today

[IMG][/IMG]


and the PLO10 graph so far

[IMG][/IMG]

You also hold 3 nut flush blockers with AAA. The only problem is do you really want to start out the hand thinking you could run a 3 street bluff? People aren't great at folding at those stakes and you end up getting hero called. Overall in my opinion it's a bit of a losing prop to play it and out of position.

hows the grind going OP?

yeah, wouldn't fancy making a big bluff agree the opponents are very cally at this stake, they even seem a lot more cally than PLO2 and 5. Another reason I wanted to play it is with the hope of getting all in pre, but that rarely happens really and just end up in trouble like you said. Thanks again for showing a different way of looking at the hand.

yeah not bad thanks, didn't play over the weekend and played today and it went quite well

here are the hands tagged from today

this hand I probably played wrong - think the turn call was pretty bad and also my play before that maybe not too good.

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $10.00 (100 bb)
MP: $10.69 (107 bb)
CO: $12.83 (128 bb)
BU: $6.39 (64 bb)
SB (Hero): $32.97 (330 bb)
BB: $11.16 (112 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is SB with 4♦ A♦ Q♣ K♦
1 fold, MP raises to $0.35, CO calls $0.35, BTN calls $0.35, Hero calls $0.30, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.50) 9♦ 4♣ Q♦ (4 players)
Hero bets $1.12, MP folds, CO calls $1.12, BTN calls $1.12

Turn: ($4.86) K♥ (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $4.65, BU folds, Hero calls $4.65

River: ($14.16) 9♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

and this hand looking back at it just seems like such a terrible fold but at the time and still now I think I get all in there and I've only got 30-35%, maybe this is just a problem from similar hands in the past I just always seem to come up against top set in this type of situation, hmm. Should be a very easy all in I guess

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG (Hero): $14.30 (143 bb)
MP: $9.90 (99 bb)
CO: $12.99 (130 bb)
BU: $26.06 (261 bb)
SB: $21.10 (211 bb)
BB: $14.83 (148 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with A♦ 9♠ 2♦ A♣
Hero raises to $0.35, MP calls $0.35, CO calls $0.35, 1 fold, SB calls $0.30, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.50) 9♦ K♥ 3♦ (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.12, MP raises to $4.80, 2 players fold, UTG (Hero) folds

here is the graph of today

[IMG][/IMG]

and here is PLO10 so far

[IMG][/IMG]

Bad hand, very bad position (do you have your VPIP/PFR per position?)
Try to play much tighter pre and only (or at least a very high percentage) in position.
It makes PLO so much easier.

H1: fold pre. I think at micro stakes you can simplify your SB strategy to 3bet or fold unless it is folded round to you. You really should be playing very tight in SB.

H2: plays much better as a check/call on the flop in my opinion. You got blasted off so much equity here - you're right that we maybe don't want to gii but we don't want to necessarily fold that equity either, and bet folding is a disaster as it loses you so much money. From a lot of the hand histories you have posted it seems like maybe you have some experience with NLHE where the initial raiser tends to cbet a ton. In PLO you should check many more hands OOP. In a 4 way pot especially you should be much tighter too.

Keep up the grind OP good work so far - just some small things that will make the game easier to play for you .

hi wacker, the 4 as a part of the AKQ hand really lets it down then I guess, I like to try and convince myself it's almost a good hand and the 4 can sometimes help when you hit an unsuspected set. But maybe that's just me wanting to play more hands, also I'm always thinking the price looks really good to enter the hand from the blinds but I do seem to get in trouble there.

my stats from the SB says 22.33 vpip and pfr 10.36 and looking at my stats I am losing a lot of money from the SB. Have tried to tighten up a little since my graph seems to have turned at PLO10 but think I need to continue tightening up then.

My BB doesn't seem too bad with vpip of 25 and PFR of 10 and I seem to be losing less than half of my BB I'm posting so maybe that's okay.

Surprisingly from EP I'm down about 9 buy-ins in EV after 4200 hands when playing a tight 12 VPIP, maybe I need to do something different there, my other stats I would imagine seem normal with co,mp and button being profitable but even for a while at plo10 I was losing a lot from the button so was probably playing vpip 60 or something from there for a bit

thanks for the position tips wacker


h1) looks like people think it's an easy fold then which helps as I think I've probably been playing even worse than that from the SB, do find playing from the SB after 3betting quite hard though. Need to work on the hands I'm playing from the SB.

2) yeah I did play NL for about 8 years so maybe that's where the too much cbetting comes from. It was annoying to bet fold that hand, sometimes I think when OOP and you get a good hand you end up winning a small pot but maybe the key is to make sure I'm not OOP a lot anyway and take those small pots rather than overplaying bigger pots from OOP and ending up losing the hand anyway.

thanks for the small things and kind words Bubba they help a lot

So I played a session today and it went alright again, one of those days when I didn't end up tagging any hands for some reason.

oh and no photobucket at the moment either it seems so not much of an update then, no graphs but played 1500 hands and the EV line went up about $23.

The first hand with the AAAx I would just see a flop. Your actually blocking yourself from flopping a set. 3b is ok but this hand really doesn't have a lot of potential. So really i just want to see a flop and looking for a flush draw. On the flop I would check with 2 other players in the pot and fold to a big bet. You just don't have much equity in the hand and if they have big drawing hand or a set your way behind and those are the kind of hands they are going to be betting multi way. So i would check flop and if they do big bet just fold. You don't want to get to carried away in multi way pot without much equity. Unless you hit the A you pretty much have to fold the turn after you call the flop. Look to bet hands with more potential in multi way pots and hero fold the top pair and over pair stuff without much equity. Gl wit the plo grind

From a qucik look at your HH´s, I´d say:

1) You are overfolding in spots where you might be ahead/should just GII. Like bet-folding K93dd w/ AA92dd. If you plan on folding to a raise, check the flop. However after you get raised you have no reason to fold.

2) You are playing too loose/passive OOP, probably too tight/passive in LP. An example is the AKQ4ddd hand, IMHO too weak to call from the SB, so if you play it you need to raise. As played, I hate leading - I´d much prefer to go for a check-raise here since you are not the preflop aggressor, and if it gets checked through it isn´t really bad either.

3) You bluff/semibluff too little. One prime example is the hand where you hold A764 on the CO; you basically flop the nuts with 852r, it goes check-check and you check behind. Why? What are you afraid of?

A good tool for playing with ranges equity is http://www.propokertools.com/simulations, do some sims there for a start if you haven´t already.

hi iburydoscocaroaches seems people think I should be calling or folding in this kind of situation with AAA hand from the SB and yeah agree now it is hard to play/ not going to be good often anyway so in the future I'll look to just see a flop as you say or even fold if disciplined enough. Thanks for the analysis showing why it's bad and cheers for the GL, goodluck in your thread too looks like a tough challenge

Hi ReGen

1) yeah I do think I overfold especially with some of the poor hands people show up with at times, but then I suppose there are the other times when I'm being a chicken and folding a really strong hand thinking they could have top set which they could but they could also have other stuff and when the pot is a decent size already I should get all in and yeah bet folding in these spots does seem quite bad looking back at it

2) thanks, trying to work on not playing so much out of position and hopefully not lead myself into bad hands

3) hmm does seem like a hand I'd like to bet normally, maybe I was trying to check as I didn't want to be betting and folding again as it was noticed that sometimes I bet too often when I have a pretty decent hand and then end up folding

thanks for the tip and link, haven't done any sims for a while as I brought oddsoracle but then seem to have lost it so I'll have to buy it again/ maybe your link will be enough for a while

So played again today and my EV line went up about $5 but I think I played really bad today after being quite happy with how I've played the last few sessions, probably should have been down a few buy-ins in EV but just ended up getting lucky in situations.

Here is probably the worse two hands

so this hand is a kind of thing that comes up fairly often, it's when your in a hand and the turn card hits, and you don't want to call a large bet and you think he's going to make a large bet rather than check, so I kind of just bet into him fairly smallish hoping he would just fold or call because my hands okay but then he went and raised so I had to fold anyway. My play is probably pretty bad but I'm just trying to think what to do when you don't want to call a large bet into the pot when you have a pretty good hand. Could also maybe focus on not playing the hand from UTG and not calling the 3bet too but as I said above it's annoying me a bit in the situation, you've got quite a good hand but don't really want to be calling a decent bet into the pot, maybe just check fold then but didn't really want to be doing that either, bit confusing really

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG (Hero): $28.67 (287 bb)
MP: $4.86 (49 bb)
CO: $41.26 (413 bb)
BU: $10.00 (100 bb)
SB: $10.59 (106 bb)
BB: $10.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with Q♦ 7♦ T♠ A♠
Hero raises to $0.35, 1 fold, CO 3-bets to $1.20, 1 fold, SB calls $1.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.85

Flop: ($3.70) A♦ 7♣ K♥ (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2, CO calls $2, SB folds

Turn: ($7.70) Q♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $4, CO raises to $14.76, UTG (Hero) folds

and this next hand came about

to start with I 3bet from the blinds I think just because I've been told it's good to 3bet from the blinds without really knowing why so not sure if I should be three betting here or not

then the flop comes and I decide to bet and hope the big stack next to me folds and I should be doing okay whatever happens I think vs the smaller stacks but he doesn't, he raises me, the worse outcome that I didn't expect to happen. So there is a lot of money in the pot already and I'm sitting there trying to make a calculation because I think I read somewhere that 40% of the time you have a set, you end up with a fullhouse anyway, not sure if that is true but in that timeframe and with a few other hands going on at the same time I was struggling to work it out so kind of just went all in a bit frustrated but was hoping maybe it wasn't a terrible call as obviously 100% of the time he has a flush here.

he ends up just having the nut flush blocker so I get very lucky with my probably bad call and winning a nice pot but it was definitely luck rather than judgement as I think it was a tilted call and maybe I'd end up with just 35/40% chance at the pot but end up with pretty much 100% of it.

I've got to get to bed now but tomorrow I'll try doing the sim to see with the amount of money in the pot and pretty much vs the flush I thought he had, how bad/ okay the actual call was and it will be interesting as I couldn't work it out in the hand. (had a quick look now as if he has the flush and I think I'd have about 37% vs the nut flush, so with $13.50 already in the pot of what will be a $66 pot, I have to get $23.86 more in to win $66 so it is actually a good call, pretty surprised by that? maybe I've worked it out wrong/ I'm sure there are better ways to play the hand and it was probably a losing way to play the hand but the actual call might have been okay afterall)

Also it would just be interesting to hear how people would actually play the hand from the start themselves.

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $69.03 (690 bb)
MP: $9.84 (98 bb)
CO: $10.00 (100 bb)
BU: $25.34 (253 bb)
SB: $34.02 (340 bb)
BB (Hero): $30.76 (308 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with T♣ K♠ K♥ 8♥
UTG raises to $0.35, MP calls $0.35, CO calls $0.35, 1 fold, SB calls $0.30, Hero 3-bets to $2.10, UTG calls $1.75, MP calls $1.75, CO calls $1.75, 1 fold

Flop: ($8.75) 6♦ 2♦ K♦ (4 players)
Hero bets $4.80, UTG raises to $22.78, 2 players fold, Hero raises to $28.66 (all-in), UTG calls $5.88

Turn: ($66.07) J♥ (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($66.07) 3♥ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $66.07 (Rake: $1.50)

Showdown:
BB (Hero) shows T♣ K♠ K♥ 8♥ (three of a kind, Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 64%, Flop: 98%, Turn: 93%, River: 100%)

UTG shows A♦ 2♠ Q♥ Q♣ (a pair of Queens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 36%, Flop: 2%, Turn: 8%, River: 0%)

BB (Hero) wins $64.57


here is the graph of today and the PLO 10 graph so far

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

Hand 1 I am check calling flop as you are oop from 3B on A high board. Would also check turn as played. You aren’t getting much if any value and could be crushed by off chance slow played AA, or a AKJT etc.
preflop is fine.

Hand 2 - just call this pre all day. You are bloating a pot 5 ways without an ace blocker and iffy Kong’s. It is perfectly fine to just flat a hand such as this in the Bb especially against an UTG open. I’m no expert with preflop plays, but I think this is without a doubt a flat pre and never anything else. As played, I would never be leading this. 4 ways if you get any action you’re usually in a way behind situation against a flush.

Just keep on grinding! I bet you gonna feel pretty good when you hit breakeven at plo10

This is why I recommended the sims - my comment regarding flopping the nuts was not sarcastic. You are basically a coinflip against top set.

Regarding H1 in your latest post, it is actually quite tricky given you and CO are 300+ BB deep. If shallower, I probably 4-bet AQT7ds pre since flatting OOP kind of sucks and since this is a hand that plays decently against a normal 3B range (you block AA; and even if he has AA, you have 36%, against KK you flip, and you dominate a lot of medium rundowns + fold equity). But also this deep I might consider four-betting and if called on such a flop, I probably lead small (like 30% of pot) vs CO.

As played, I hate taking the betting lead with your hand on this board. You have a decent hand with nut potential, and if a J hits you will often have a freeroll vs CO if stacks then go in, but you do not want to bloat the pot since there are lots of cards that V can use as bluffs/semibluffs/valuebets, and rangewise CO also has AA/KK here much more often than you.

hand 1, yeah I suppose even though my hand seems quite good I could easily be behind so being more cautious and checking might be better

hand 2, thanks for showing why it isn't great to be 3betting here, guess I'm not going to get many folds at all and I'm only really looking to hit a set of KK to be good in that hand

Cheers Rutledge

haha thanks tobjo, yeah I'm looking forward to it


ah i see, didn't quite realise I would be doing that well against top set. Seems people think check calling is the way to go in H1. When you say you would consider 4betting preflop if shallower I take it you are happy to get the stacks in preflop as you can't really fold after 4betting, but how about when you say you might consider 4betting this deep, do you go all in at this point too? and thanks for pointing some stuff out I will make sure to do some work with sims - again once last night I had AA and the nutflush draw and I didn't bet but think I just ended up folding, then I had a very similar hand again and made sure to get all in on the flop an he only had like 36% vs me.

Played again last night and I thought I played pretty well and ran well too which was nice.

This is the only hand I tagged, hope preflop is ok, think I tagged it because the raise was quite big on the turn and just found it tricky to know if he has the straight at this point

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $13.33 (133 bb)
MP: $12.55 (126 bb)
CO: $15.45 (155 bb)
BU (Hero): $14.16 (142 bb)
SB: $45.13 (451 bb)
BB: $12.34 (123 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with 9♣ J♣ Q♠ J♠
UTG raises to $0.35, 2 players fold, Hero 3-bets to $1.20, 2 players fold, UTG calls $0.85

Flop: ($2.55) J♥ 3♥ 6♠ (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.60, UTG calls $1.60

Turn: ($5.75) 7♦ (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $3.15, UTG raises to $10.53 (all-in), Hero calls $7.38

here is yesterdays graph

[IMG][/IMG]


and the plo10 graph so far

[IMG][/IMG]

Yup, that´s why I recommended you to do some sims. Equities in PLO are quite different from NLT and run much closer, so it is very important that you know situations by heart - knowing how strong a wrap straight draw is kind of is PLO 101. Also this is one of the reasons why the swings are so brutal in PLO. Top set is not even a favourite to win in certain spots (an example from the top of my head - KK92r vs QJ98ss on KT4ss.

Regarding 4-betting, yes, with stacks around 100BB it is a no-brainer GII spot. The stack sizes in question make this spot a bit akward though, since a 4-bet would be to around 30BB and if we get 5-bet, it would be to 90BB or so leading to a SPR of around 1 on the flop. So if we call our opponent should just GII no matter how the flop is (if he plays correctly) and we need to call off on a lot of flops anyway, and by GII we guarantee that we see all five cards = we avoid making mistakes on the flop.

This is basically the only reason I am hesitant to 4-bet this hand at this precise depth - if we are shallower, it is easy, we can just GII. If we are deeper (like 500BB), this is a beautiful spot to play IP even if he 5-bets us. But at stacks of 250-350 BB it gets a bit tricky so I am a bit torn between just calling and 4-betting.

FWIW, if I play this hand and 4-bet, I call a 5-bet. This increases the likelyhood of our opponent playing this hand incorrectly postflop.

Well played. You can´t stop value-betting just because the straight got there (weak, missing value, bad from a range perspective as well IMHO) and you can´t fold to the raise either, that would be a disaster.

looks like you turning it around overall.
do you prefer the zoom format? imo it's a huge raketrap. I know it's tempting due the speed and hands/hour but overall i think it's a mistake playing zoom at PLO10-PLO50.

yeah sometimes when I see the %'s at all in on stars they surprise me, think it is the wrap straight draw that is hardest as it seems hardest to work out what cards are going to be good for you when it's easier with just a straight draw. If i do it in sims at least I will have time to look at the %'s.

Thanks for the 4betting/ 5betting advice, I'll look into that stuff more in the future I think as I'm still struggling with the basics or maybe it would help learning that for PLO10 it just seems that so so often they have AA when they 3bet and I get in trouble 4betting I think as I don't understand how to apply this kind of stuff yet.

ah not sure I'm turning it around after today
I like zoom at microstakes so I can hopefully learn some stuff and with added wages hoped to climb up the smaller stakes pretty quickly, getting stuck at PLO10 though think I'll be here for the rest of the year
yeah agree with it being a raketrap, I've paid $483 in rake at PLO10 so far

So played today, didn't play at all well, kept trying to get back to even when I should just be trying to play well and ran bad too so it was a bad day, didn't tag any hands, would have kept timing out if I did because most of them were bad but I would have done better timing out anyway.

here's todays graph

[IMG][/IMG]

and plo10 so far

[IMG][/IMG]

played again today, another poor session, was trying a few different things and they didn't really work, can't work out how plo2 and 5 were no problem for me but plo10 is causing/ or i'm causing myself so many problems. Saying that maybe I should just revert to very tight as that seemed to be working as my graph went up a bit but then i seem to have started playing more hands again.

here's a couple of hands I tagged, think I must be tilting a bit the last 3000 or so hands too.

when people do this, and you have the strong overpair I was very tempted/ usually do fold, how am I even supposed to guess if he's hit a set, two pair here

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $10.00 (100 bb)
MP: $38.66 (387 bb)
CO: $7.78 (78 bb)
BU (Hero): $10.00 (100 bb)
SB: $18.59 (186 bb)
BB: $8.48 (85 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with 8♦ K♦ K♣ A♠
2 players fold, CO raises to $0.33, Hero 3-bets to $1.14, 2 players fold, CO calls $0.81

Flop: ($2.43) T♠ 3♥ 6♣ (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $1.40, CO raises to $6.53, Hero raises to $8.86 (all-in), CO calls $0.11 (all-in)

this is just the same kind of scenario as above

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG (Hero): $10.32 (103 bb)
MP: $16.66 (167 bb)
CO: $3.34 (33 bb)
BU: $10.00 (100 bb)
SB: $10.00 (100 bb)
BB: $19.83 (198 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with A♣ A♥ 2♠ T♣
Hero raises to $0.35, 4 players fold, BB calls $0.25

Flop: ($0.75) K♠ 2♣ 6♥ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.40, BB raises to $1.16, Hero calls $0.76

Turn: ($3.07) 5♦ (2 players)
BB bets $2.30, UTG (Hero) folds

this hand I think I must have just tagged it because I wasn't sure if I should be betting river

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $15.84 (158 bb)
MP (Hero): $18.39 (184 bb)
CO: $10.89 (109 bb)
BU: $9.88 (99 bb)
SB: $8.68 (87 bb)
BB: $20.19 (202 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP with 8♣ Q♣ K♦ T♠
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.35, CO calls $0.35, 1 fold, SB calls $0.30, BB calls $0.25

Flop: ($1.40) 9♣ K♥ K♣ (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1.05, CO folds, SB calls $1.05, BB folds

Turn: ($3.50) 6♠ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.61, SB calls $2.61

River: ($8.72) 4♣ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $6.51, SB calls $4.67 (all-in)

and this hand I've tagged but looking back on it, guess it is just a cooler

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $7.19 (72 bb)
MP: $10.69 (107 bb)
CO: $12.34 (123 bb)
BU (Hero): $11.89 (119 bb)
SB: $7.52 (75 bb)
BB: $10.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with 5♣ K♦ 8♦ Q♣
UTG raises to $0.20, 2 players fold, Hero 3-bets to $0.75, SB calls $0.70, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.55

Flop: ($2.35) Q♥ 6♦ Q♠ (3 players)
SB bets $2.03, UTG folds, Hero calls $2.03

Turn: ($6.41) J♥ (2 players)
SB bets $4.74 (all-in), Hero calls $4.74

here's todays graph

[IMG][/IMG]

and plo10 so far

[IMG][/IMG]

Hi

I had another two very poor days of trying to beat PLO10zoom. I think that after 35000 hands and 70 hours I just don't have the brain power to beat the stake. It's probably a very beatable stake for some people as it seemed a funny stake in that people were a lot more cally than PLO2, but I guess they were more aggressive too. I just don't think I can get my head around it and after spending 55 buy-ins on rake I suppose I can say I played pretty bad and still managed to beat the player pool if you add the 55 buy-ins to my EV line I'd be up about 20 buy-ins which I suppose is a good thing because I was feeling so stupid not being able to beat it. Even though I might not be that good it seemed the players I was playing against weren't even trying and were just messing around but still beating me and it just doesn't feel beatable for myself whereas other stakes/games do. Guess it does highlight how bad rake at zoom PLO in those stakes as I was trying hard and I have been playing a while so I think it would be pretty hard for a lot of players to beat it.

So I think I am probably going to give PLO10 zoom a miss, might try every now and then to beat it. My plan for PLO zoom is to put it on hold and come back at a higher stake, apparently the rake is better? Although when I look at the rake chart on pokerstars the rake seems pretty much the same at all stakes of plo zoom but maybe a lower max cap on pots makes a big difference? So with a lower rake and more motivation to beat a higher stake hopefully I will come back to PLO and try and complete this thread. Thanks for the PLO advice in the thread hopefully it improved me a bit

I have decided at the moment to just move over to NL zoom. I thought I'd just dip my toe in it and see what it was like when I was really frustrated at PLO and I did like the feel of NL, it felt like it is beatable and a couple of things I like about it after not playing for a couple of years will be the pretty much no variance compared to PLO and it seemed easier working out cards when you are only playing against two rather than four. So my plan for this thread is just to make it a being a winner at PLO/NL zoom from 2 to 500 stakes, then hopefully I can move up the stakes and either play PLO or NL at higher stakes than I am now.

So this is how the PLO10 graph looked



this is the one NL hand I tagged, not really worth posting I think I was just thinking at the time, I have to stop betting on the turn as they have a pair here and won't get folds.

PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $21.76 (218 bb)
MP: $9.90 (99 bb)
CO: $6.08 (61 bb)
BU: $11.00 (110 bb)
SB: $9.63 (96 bb)
BB (Hero): $10.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with J♦ K♥
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, 2 players fold, Hero raises to $0.50, MP calls $0.40, CO calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.55) 7♥ 5♥ 5♣ (3 players)
Hero bets $0.90, MP calls $0.90, CO calls $0.90

Turn: ($4.25) 5♦ (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets $4.06, BB (Hero) folds, MP raises to $8.50 (all-in), CO calls $0.62 (all-in)


and this is my new NL10 graph that I hope will start to look better than the PLO graph

Played NL10 again today and seemed to go well, quite enjoying the change at the moment. Here is the one hand I tagged from today, don't think I can really get away from losing this pot

PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $18.02 (180 bb)
MP: $10.27 (103 bb)
CO: $15.11 (151 bb)
BU: $11.28 (113 bb)
SB: $11.92 (119 bb)
BB (Hero): $27.23 (272 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with A♦ A♣
2 players fold, CO raises to $0.30, 2 players fold, Hero 3-bets to $1.30, CO calls $1

Flop: ($2.65) 3♣ Q♣ 9♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $1.80, CO calls $1.80

Turn: ($6.25) 5♥ (2 players)
Hero bets $4.20, CO raises to $12.01 (all-in), Hero calls $7.81

here is my graph from today

[IMG][/IMG]

and the NL10 graph so far

[IMG][/IMG]

No pls do not give up PLO10!

I know PLO10 is hard to beat compared to PLO5 or even PLO25 but that if you can take that hurdle it means a lot imo.

Try to improve your overall game, stick to value hands only, share your hands. I would be really sad if you leave us back to Holdem. Put more effort into theoretical improvement, what books/videos do you have? I had that phase too but I think longterm PLO has much more potential to be profitable and edges are easier to develop.

About your last 3 Plo hands:

When playing postflop, the board texture influences the ranges, the handstrength and the playing dynamic much more compared to holdem.

1) I would fold a bare overpair against a straightforward regular or unknown for the first time, the c-bet should be still profitable and being wrong does not cost you much. You can avoid swingy spots and it is probably still +ev as their raising range is against a lot of abc-regulars more weighted towards value hands, they often have no light semi-bluffs for stacks. If you have seen villain checkraising single toppair hands in 3bp you can make a note and gii with overpairs in the future. In agressive dynamics this hand usually tends to become an auto-stack off. He will have TTxx very rarely and u can rule out most sets. His combodraws should come more seldom too, this is a very light flop.

2) This is also a light flop so the scenario is similar at the first glance but if you take a closer look at it it is not. Think about preflop ranges that brought you into the situation otf. First you are oop against a openraise-flatcalling range which should be stronger, often nonpaired and exclude all AA combos (therefore more Broadway-x-x-x hands). Now you have a bb-defensive coldcalling range which can be very wide and more nutted. He will have KKxx primarily when he decides to checkraise 4value. As you have the best overpair, a backdoorflushdraw and a pairblocker overall I would defend this hand with a call as a default and fold on the turn without improvement just as you did. A flop bet-fold against straightforward or unknown regulars makes sense too.

3) This is a very heavy and wet board. If you want to balance your turn-checking range this hand suits well as a check-call. A flushdraw is unlikely to call 2 barrels on a paired board and you have a high flushdraw yourself. If he has a pair he won't have many outs to overtake you. In turn situations like this where both players are likely to have trips it is your advantage to have overcards to the nonpaired sidecards of the board (Q, T and 8 which you can count as 1 out over 9 & 6 for his instance). So a bet to build the pot is okay. On the river is is not an automatic stack-off, you should be aware he must be calling more flushes and bare trips compared to full-houses that have you beat, so the check-call is a nice option. against passive fishes go ahead and bet allin otr). Against nits and some very tight regs I would even consider check-folding. You always want to dominate your opponents and you dont want to pay the nuts with second best hands. with a fullhouse he could feel very safe and just call ip to trap you.

4) It is a dry paired board. Considering the SPR you cannot fold trips, you are ahead of high pocket pairs and you have some back-up outs so this is well-played.