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Old 02-07-2017, 03:23 PM   #176
LittleGoliath
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Pads, serious question now. What kind of sample size do you think is starting to become kind of relevant for bb999+? Also, how much of this do you think is skewed by variance? Since bb999+ typically comes down to a lower avg stack, lower winrates are achieved, right?

Thx for answering and stop responding to that troll pls.
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Old 02-07-2017, 04:25 PM   #177
schmette
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

sub
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Old 02-07-2017, 04:49 PM   #178
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

For the record, I didn't mean to just start bashing BitB. I was more shocked that these were the goals for the top stable around at the moment, which means there are tons of other stables where the players can expect a much lower EV.

Given that the best of the best are pulling in barely above min wage means the rest are going to be fighting for scraps.

Things do look rosy for the owners, though. An elite set of players putting in decent volume with apparently a biggest downswing of $75k. 100 players that when they play are each making you an EV of $10-20 p/h. Looking at somewhere around $150k p/m for the owners.

gl for the rest of the year.
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Old 02-07-2017, 05:03 PM   #179
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Quote:
Originally Posted by zepher06 View Post
For the record, I didn't mean to just start bashing BitB. I was more shocked that these were the goals for the top stable around at the moment, which means there are tons of other stables where the players can expect a much lower EV.

Given that the best of the best are pulling in barely above min wage means the rest are going to be fighting for scraps.

Things do look rosy for the owners, though. An elite set of players putting in decent volume with apparently a biggest downswing of $75k. 100 players that when they play are each making you an EV of $10-20 p/h. Looking at somewhere around $150k p/m for the owners.

gl for the rest of the year.
Also depends a lot on how many of these 70 guys are low stakes development players and how much are the higher tier guys
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Old 02-07-2017, 06:26 PM   #180
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

What's the highest profit cut in horse's favor you have had? No prob if you can't answer
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Old 02-07-2017, 06:42 PM   #181
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Thanks for this thread!
Can you name your top 5 horses?
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Old 02-07-2017, 07:29 PM   #182
Kazuya
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

This post will not make me any fans and that's fine. The reason I typed this out is I wish I knew this from the start/told all my poker friends this back in the day and hopefully there's a few readers that it will provide value for.

Disclaimer: I don't know OP, he doesn't know me.


As someone who's had a long (successful, albeit semi-retired now) career in poker (never been staked, never done 'community work' with other players) it's a bit fresh to say it's a recipe for disaster if you don't have a community of support/are staked. Of course, poker, like as in life, there are things that can set you up for success or not, but to talk in absolutes like that/feed on peoples fear that you NEED this product you're selling comes across as disingenuous when in reality that's not the case at all.

I opened this thread expecting something else I guess and speaking as someone who does have a lot of experience (actually making a living off poker) it's deceitful to portray the whole concept of staking only in the framework you're doing. I get that you want to look good and have pride in your service, but there's +'s and -'s for a potential stakee and the part that I disagree with is not emphasizing the +'s you provide, but glossing over the -'s and even misrepresenting them like you seem to be doing (ie: leave a stake you'll get crushed; I have had friends that have left stakes and they've done just fine)

I don't know your goals/values you have for running a stable, but assuming it's not just $ (which is a big assumption, cause even if it is, that's your choice and there's nothing wrong with it, but just own it and be upfront about it) but it feels like if you were more sincere you wouldn't make a lot of these assumptions/posts you're making (I saw someone else called you out on it) To be fair, I respect the hustle and can clearly see why you want to advertise your staking in this thread but there's no need to use your reputation and tell people going 'solo' in the poker world is setting yourself up for failure/disaster (or heaven forbid leaving a stake and you'll instantly fall behind everyone else.. yeah no!).

There's many ways to climb the ladder with poker, and for some people indeed staking will be the best way. That's a very narrow niche, and if you're serious about poker it likely doesn't apply to you. But that's a whole different subject area and I'm not going to go that route. But just so everyone is clear, as I'm sure you know, the irony is that the the ones where staking is best for (for meaning: poker players) are the ones you actually don't want to have. You could dress it up all you want, but it's just how a business model of this kind works and not many people understand that. It's your thread and I'm just a random voice, but for example if you want to be more fair-sided you could even talk in this thread the kind of people that staking is best for ( and likewise the kinds of people staking is worst for!). Or even when to leave a stake...but we both know the bottom line is it's not good for your bottom line to do this. (but it's something that hopefully people looking to get staked/are staked should be giving serious thought to).

Anyway, this isn't even so much a slight against you, you could be the coolest person ever and I'd still make this post. And for the record, I do believe you're providing a value/service in exchange for profits - nothing wrong with that. But more specifically, I wanted to hopefully give people (potential people who want to be staked, people on stakes) to think about what they're doing and whether it's actually best for them. And to those people: listening to your staker tell you what's best for you, whether intentional or not, is certainly a conflict of interest/biased advice. I have no 'horse' in this fight, but just wanted to show and give a fair voice to the other side of the argument/coin.
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Old 02-07-2017, 07:43 PM   #183
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Well put and very true
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Old 02-07-2017, 08:48 PM   #184
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Kazuya: you make a good point for level headed players. Keep in mind though... most tourney players are either 0.5bb/100 away from losing or simpletons that are small to ok winners but will buy 5000$ worth of art after winning 6k when they were 7k in the hole, living from loans.

Im guessing this doesn't apply to most people that pads surrounds himself with but just off my skype list, i could get you right now over 40 tourney guys that have made about 7$/hr from tourneys lifetime and a lot of them are heavily indebted and few are scammers. All of them have insane spending sprees every time they win a tourney.
These people would be a lot better off with someone like pads. Most MTT players NEED a hetero-regulatory structure.
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Old 02-07-2017, 09:41 PM   #185
90%luck
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

They can dissect tracking software til the cows come home, at the end of the day the stable averages 20% ROI and coaches around 40%. All totally standard. Play a solid game and the rest is luck, you can have another 5000bb/100 "probing" turns all you like, I'll still make more ROI than you not even being in the hand. nice barg thread, zero ego these guys
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Old 02-07-2017, 10:55 PM   #186
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

GL to all!! Will follow for sure!!
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Old 02-08-2017, 12:50 AM   #187
OurSurveySays
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazuya View Post
This post will not make me any fans and that's fine. The reason I typed this out is I wish I knew this from the start/told all my poker friends this back in the day and hopefully there's a few readers that it will provide value for.

Disclaimer: I don't know OP, he doesn't know me.


As someone who's had a long (successful, albeit semi-retired now) career in poker (never been staked, never done 'community work' with other players) it's a bit fresh to say it's a recipe for disaster if you don't have a community of support/are staked. Of course, poker, like as in life, there are things that can set you up for success or not, but to talk in absolutes like that/feed on peoples fear that you NEED this product you're selling comes across as disingenuous when in reality that's not the case at all.

I opened this thread expecting something else I guess and speaking as someone who does have a lot of experience (actually making a living off poker) it's deceitful to portray the whole concept of staking only in the framework you're doing. I get that you want to look good and have pride in your service, but there's +'s and -'s for a potential stakee and the part that I disagree with is not emphasizing the +'s you provide, but glossing over the -'s and even misrepresenting them like you seem to be doing (ie: leave a stake you'll get crushed; I have had friends that have left stakes and they've done just fine)

I don't know your goals/values you have for running a stable, but assuming it's not just $ (which is a big assumption, cause even if it is, that's your choice and there's nothing wrong with it, but just own it and be upfront about it) but it feels like if you were more sincere you wouldn't make a lot of these assumptions/posts you're making (I saw someone else called you out on it) To be fair, I respect the hustle and can clearly see why you want to advertise your staking in this thread but there's no need to use your reputation and tell people going 'solo' in the poker world is setting yourself up for failure/disaster (or heaven forbid leaving a stake and you'll instantly fall behind everyone else.. yeah no!).

There's many ways to climb the ladder with poker, and for some people indeed staking will be the best way. That's a very narrow niche, and if you're serious about poker it likely doesn't apply to you. But that's a whole different subject area and I'm not going to go that route. But just so everyone is clear, as I'm sure you know, the irony is that the the ones where staking is best for (for meaning: poker players) are the ones you actually don't want to have. You could dress it up all you want, but it's just how a business model of this kind works and not many people understand that. It's your thread and I'm just a random voice, but for example if you want to be more fair-sided you could even talk in this thread the kind of people that staking is best for ( and likewise the kinds of people staking is worst for!). Or even when to leave a stake...but we both know the bottom line is it's not good for your bottom line to do this. (but it's something that hopefully people looking to get staked/are staked should be giving serious thought to).

Anyway, this isn't even so much a slight against you, you could be the coolest person ever and I'd still make this post. And for the record, I do believe you're providing a value/service in exchange for profits - nothing wrong with that. But more specifically, I wanted to hopefully give people (potential people who want to be staked, people on stakes) to think about what they're doing and whether it's actually best for them. And to those people: listening to your staker tell you what's best for you, whether intentional or not, is certainly a conflict of interest/biased advice. I have no 'horse' in this fight, but just wanted to show and give a fair voice to the other side of the argument/coin.
Hey

Was actually a post I was going to go into as one of next topics. The thread has only been open for 3-4 days (they closed it for a month) so haven't had much time to write about different topics.

Over the last couple of months we have told 3 different horses with probably 100k ev that they shouldn't be staked by us and and ended the agreement. We took these guys on (all 500k+ profit) and they were very much feel players and didn't really buy into our ideologies. One of the guys was absolutely printing, he made over $150j, we wrote to him that it just didn't mean sense and we should end the stsking agreement. He wasn't winning because of us and he wasn't going to improve because of us (at least at the rate we expect)

Around 3 months ago we dropped around 10+ horses who we just decided we're not going to move up tiers. They were making us $20k/each a year on average but we made the decision that as it was they weren't going to accelerate through the tiers and we ended the staking deals. Through these 13 guys or or we probably lost ev of around $400k? Around $70k ev for each of the three guys (me/Tomi/Sam)

Obviously you don't have to believe it and you can say it's circumstantial that I post right here this after you posted, but any guy who is in the stable and reads the thread can post to confirm we reguarly are letting guys go who Are winning.

For the guys who do work hard and do have the right DNA I firmly believe this is the right place for them to be be and we care a lot about each and every one of their developments.

However like I reiterated previously we have turned down probably 100 guys that every other single stable would have snap taken on because we thought that we wouldn't be able to significantly improve them or they wouldn't be the right fit for our community or they didn't have the potential one day to be at the top of the main stable.

If we did really have a ruthless money grabbing business model we would take as many guys in as possible. Without being arrogant I think coaching team of European/Elmerixx and me would be enough to attract more players than our competition but we want to hire guys and invest in external coaches.

In terms of horses leaving and doing well. Ibviously it's more than possible, I'm just saying in our life span so far it's been the opposite in most cases. Although one guy we dropped did win a tcoop event for $100k!

Hope I didn't miss any of your points, replying via phone.
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Old 02-08-2017, 12:57 AM   #188
Jepser8
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

I think it's pretty important to compare the new ev/results with your expected results when you won't join instead of your last years results. I imagine that most players that joined are players that were likely to increase their year ev without bitb aswell. Therefor the argument that being in bitb is +ev because on average new badgers make 60% more than last year (when they were not in bitb) isn't very strong imo. I would believe/estimate/imagine that the average personal year ev for badgers playing in the stable with a 50/50 is likely to be somewhat capped at being the same as playing on their own.

I def think that joining the stable can be +ev for your career ev tho. I belief most of the value in joining the stable will get realised after you leave the stable. Once you left you are likely to have a higher personal ev compared to not joining and you are likely able to keep this higher than never joining, by being able to work with better peer players / groups as well as already having a better starting point compared to never joining.

Nice thread and gl

Verstuurd vanaf mijn E6653 met Tapatalk

Edit: just read your new post, cool to read the stable advised some to leave since it was best for the player even when it wasn't necessarily max ev for the stable.

Last edited by Jepser8; 02-08-2017 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 02-08-2017, 01:02 AM   #189
OurSurveySays
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Quote:
Originally Posted by zepher06 View Post
For the record, I didn't mean to just start bashing BitB. I was more shocked that these were the goals for the top stable around at the moment, which means there are tons of other stables where the players can expect a much lower EV.

Given that the best of the best are pulling in barely above min wage means the rest are going to be fighting for scraps.

Things do look rosy for the owners, though. An elite set of players putting in decent volume with apparently a biggest downswing of $75k. 100 players that when they play are each making you an EV of $10-20 p/h. Looking at somewhere around $150k p/m for the owners.

gl for the rest of the year.
It's not really like this thiugh. $20 tax free in a lot of countries is really really good money. It's all very relative. Actually the guys we have the most success with are guys from countless where they really appreciate the money and they see that with hard work and they are able to make more and more money. A lot of the guys have came from tiers 8-10 to tiers 3-5 and are doing extremely well.

If a guy is failing or not making much money then it's either variance (sucks) they aren't working hard enough (sucks) or they aren't naturally good enough (sucks) there's always going to be a bunch of guys who lose the love for the game, have mental game issues, have real life problems or whatever else, so a bunch of the guys will win less than the average of the stable profits.

For a lot of guys

- making $20/hour
- working around very motivated people
- being part of a community with people from all around the world
- having the chance in one year to double / triple / quadruple and further your wage
- have a job that allows you to travel around the world doing what you love
- wake up when you want, work when you want, holiday when you want, piss when you want (shout out Joey Ingram and the piss bottle)
- have people in the top of your field as your mentor
- get free top tier educational system
- create contacts for future employment

Is extremely attractive

The downsides being

- you give away x% of your profits

That's why I posted earlier in the thread that to me I want all the best guys in the world to be staked by us rather than other people. I want to work harder than every other stable in the world so that when the player decides to give x% of his profits I am able to give absolutely more than others to make sure he is getting a good return for his money.

In terms of us doing it for the money etc, whilst the money is good (don't actually see much of it or notice it at all) I do this project for completely different reasons. Self development, self improvement and relationships with the guys. When players who have been in big makeup and I've seen them every single day grind their arse off and really work out of something that I really doubt I'd have the capability of doing. Seeing them win that WCOOP or final table a big event etc is so gratifying and such a happy experience. It sounds ridiculous but you really can't imagine how good it feels and the money pales in significance. At least for me personally.
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Old 02-08-2017, 01:03 AM   #190
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Quote:
Originally Posted by ac3play View Post
What's the highest profit cut in horse's favor you have had? No prob if you can't answer
Can't really go into this, one guy previously was agreed a slightly better deal than 50/50, but now because of big external costs and because of the business model we have a very strict maximum 50/50 deal structure.
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Old 02-08-2017, 01:06 AM   #191
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Quote:
Originally Posted by botsonparty View Post
Kazuya: you make a good point for level headed players. Keep in mind though... most tourney players are either 0.5bb/100 away from losing or simpletons that are small to ok winners but will buy 5000$ worth of art after winning 6k when they were 7k in the hole, living from loans.

Im guessing this doesn't apply to most people that pads surrounds himself with but just off my skype list, i could get you right now over 40 tourney guys that have made about 7$/hr from tourneys lifetime and a lot of them are heavily indebted and few are scammers. All of them have insane spending sprees every time they win a tourney.
These people would be a lot better off with someone like pads. Most MTT players NEED a hetero-regulatory structure.
I think this is very true.

The amount of guys that have "made" $500k+ and are now broke is so long you wouldn't believe.

We almost force our guys to use our mental / life coach who does an absolutely amazing job with goal setting, personal problems etc, unfortunately he refuses to ever tell us any information about any of the meetings. But he doesn't for the right reasons and the guys love that they have him to fall back on if they're in "trouble" mentally.
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Old 02-08-2017, 01:07 AM   #192
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Quote:
Originally Posted by 90%luck View Post
They can dissect tracking software til the cows come home, at the end of the day the stable averages 20% ROI and coaches around 40%. All totally standard. Play a solid game and the rest is luck, you can have another 5000bb/100 "probing" turns all you like, I'll still make more ROI than you not even being in the hand. nice barg thread, zero ego these guys
Welcome to the thread!
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Old 02-08-2017, 01:12 AM   #193
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Btw everybody, I didn't really intend for this to go down the route of random
Accounts coming in and then replying to them. Was more supposed to be a diary of what I did today to try and be better than yesterday, what I'm failing at, graphs from bad days, graphs from good days etc.

If people post I'll reply because we don't have anything to hide etc but it was always intended to be more of a diary than a discussion around staking in general, although I realise it's now a pretty good place for all kind of discussions regarding staking, which is fine. Just to reiterate my intention was always supposed to be around this being more of a "diary"
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Old 02-08-2017, 03:04 AM   #194
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Hi Pads,

Are your horses allowed any flexibility with poker? As in if they're feeling the grind of tournaments they play cash/STT/ etc.?

Thanks
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Old 02-08-2017, 04:31 AM   #195
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

It's sad that everything seems to be too good to be true and everyone is considered to be money grabbing greedy bastards in this community.

I'm one of the mentioned dropped badgers and from a now non biased standpoint I can say that these guys and the community they created are 99.9% genuine, honest and unique.
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Old 02-08-2017, 04:39 AM   #196
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbissick View Post
Hi Pads,

Are your horses allowed any flexibility with poker? As in if they're feeling the grind of tournaments they play cash/STT/ etc.?

Thanks
Nope, we only stake for tournaments.
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Old 02-08-2017, 05:15 AM   #197
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

So glad the 2p2 came to and let this thread live. Been a follower of your other thread for a long time and looking forward to watching this one grow. Subbed obvs.
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Old 02-08-2017, 09:02 AM   #198
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Quote:
Originally Posted by OurSurveySays View Post
No our profits are not counted.

what graph would you like to see? How many? What time scales? We're not running some big scam or con here buddy? Post from your real account and I'll ask our data guy with all the sharkscope log ins to take some time out of his day tomorrow to get you some graphs, np.
Wow you are quite the drama queen. Fwiw I have one account, I normally only lurk but eventually became sick of listening to your bs that I felt the need to post, there are no other well known poster that posts even close to as much tripe as you do, bar maybe Allen Kessler!
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Old 02-08-2017, 09:06 AM   #199
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazuya View Post
This post will not make me any fans and that's fine. The reason I typed this out is I wish I knew this from the start/told all my poker friends this back in the day and hopefully there's a few readers that it will provide value for.

Disclaimer: I don't know OP, he doesn't know me.


As someone who's had a long (successful, albeit semi-retired now) career in poker (never been staked, never done 'community work' with other players) it's a bit fresh to say it's a recipe for disaster if you don't have a community of support/are staked. Of course, poker, like as in life, there are things that can set you up for success or not, but to talk in absolutes like that/feed on peoples fear that you NEED this product you're selling comes across as disingenuous when in reality that's not the case at all.

I opened this thread expecting something else I guess and speaking as someone who does have a lot of experience (actually making a living off poker) it's deceitful to portray the whole concept of staking only in the framework you're doing. I get that you want to look good and have pride in your service, but there's +'s and -'s for a potential stakee and the part that I disagree with is not emphasizing the +'s you provide, but glossing over the -'s and even misrepresenting them like you seem to be doing (ie: leave a stake you'll get crushed; I have had friends that have left stakes and they've done just fine)

I don't know your goals/values you have for running a stable, but assuming it's not just $ (which is a big assumption, cause even if it is, that's your choice and there's nothing wrong with it, but just own it and be upfront about it) but it feels like if you were more sincere you wouldn't make a lot of these assumptions/posts you're making (I saw someone else called you out on it) To be fair, I respect the hustle and can clearly see why you want to advertise your staking in this thread but there's no need to use your reputation and tell people going 'solo' in the poker world is setting yourself up for failure/disaster (or heaven forbid leaving a stake and you'll instantly fall behind everyone else.. yeah no!).

There's many ways to climb the ladder with poker, and for some people indeed staking will be the best way. That's a very narrow niche, and if you're serious about poker it likely doesn't apply to you. But that's a whole different subject area and I'm not going to go that route. But just so everyone is clear, as I'm sure you know, the irony is that the the ones where staking is best for (for meaning: poker players) are the ones you actually don't want to have. You could dress it up all you want, but it's just how a business model of this kind works and not many people understand that. It's your thread and I'm just a random voice, but for example if you want to be more fair-sided you could even talk in this thread the kind of people that staking is best for ( and likewise the kinds of people staking is worst for!). Or even when to leave a stake...but we both know the bottom line is it's not good for your bottom line to do this. (but it's something that hopefully people looking to get staked/are staked should be giving serious thought to).

Anyway, this isn't even so much a slight against you, you could be the coolest person ever and I'd still make this post. And for the record, I do believe you're providing a value/service in exchange for profits - nothing wrong with that. But more specifically, I wanted to hopefully give people (potential people who want to be staked, people on stakes) to think about what they're doing and whether it's actually best for them. And to those people: listening to your staker tell you what's best for you, whether intentional or not, is certainly a conflict of interest/biased advice. I have no 'horse' in this fight, but just wanted to show and give a fair voice to the other side of the argument/coin.
Couldn't have even came close to saying it as good as this, great post with a lot of truth's in there!
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Old 02-08-2017, 09:06 AM   #200
OurSurveySays
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Re: $5m Profit in 2017 - Best In the Business

What would you like to see exactly buddy? I'm happy to oblige!
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