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Poker Goals & Challenges Post your threads logging your travels up the poker ladder as you achieve your poker goals and dreams. "Challenges" does NOT mean prop bets, wagers, etc.

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Old 04-16-2018, 10:56 PM   #76
Nozsr
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Re: 4-Month Grind: 100k Challenge

Just one minor observation, dust in the wind compared to the depth of open-ness from Spirit, but it's important to have in the back of our minds when we play.

"... But clearly, I don't soft play. I'm there to make money. It's just I can't get myself to ignore the sad aspects of the game we play and the society that encourages violence and battle and financial obsession..."

Nobody forces anyone to go play poker. The players are there of their own free will (or their lack of discipline to stay away if they lose all the time but it is still a choice.

Except for the occasionally arrogant bastard, I too have no ill will towards any of my Villains, individually or collectively. I have actually spoken to fish away from the table and offered a few simple suggestions to slow their loss rate. Minus EV I know but there have been a few that I felt self-important and empathetic enough to offer suggestions anyhow. Guess what? They didn't want any help. They weren't rude but they didn't change their play in any way whatsoever. Anecdotal only, doesn't mean all fish would remain the same, but it is still their free will and still their choice.

But here's the thing. If we know they are going to lose their time and their money with methodical certainty, if we don't win their money, someone else will. That is worth repeating - someone else will. As long as we make the choice to play in the first place, it might as well be us that wins it.

Not only that - we have a fiduciary obligation to ourselves, our sanity, and those who might depend on us however much or little that might be - including ourselves - to play to win. Could Hank Reardon ever do less than his level best at whatever he was doing? Francisco D'Antonia? Dagny Taggart? Who would willingly want to be James Taggart?

Allow me to offer my own recommended reading.

Atlas Shrugged (Ayn Rand)
Psychology of Self Esteem (Nathaniel Branden)
How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World (Harry Browne)
Stranger in a Strange Land (Robert Heinlein)

Someone who has read these four books will view poker differently. I am not claiming that they will view it "correctly", but surely differently.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:58 PM   #77
preki
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Re: 4-Month Grind: 100k Challenge

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Originally Posted by karamazonk View Post
Stumbled upon this thread today and am glad that I did. We have had very similar experiences in poker as well as conclusions regarding the same. While reading your posts over the last hour, I've felt less lonely and misunderstood. Thank you.

Do you know your MBTI (myers briggs) type, by chance?

FWIW, I think you and Rich are both being a bit unfair to each other above. Personally, over my many years playing poker I've moved from an experience of poker similar to Rich's to one more similar to yours, but that doesn't mean I think everyone should view poker the same way that I (we?) currently do. I think you're both overgeneralizing about the other based on pretty scant information. I don't want to derail the thread further, but reading the exchange above was kind of tilting as I think both posters could have been more respectful of the other.
I was thinking the same thing but didn't have the ability to say it.
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:45 AM   #78
water69
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Re: 4-Month Grind: 100k Challenge

I think that’s poor logic. You could also say “people are going to do heroin anyway, so it might as well be me who sells it.” That’s obviously an extreme example, but just because something is going to happen anyway, doesn’t mean it’s “good” or “okay” to be a part of it.

Without getting too hippy and saying things like “all life is connected”, I think people tend to feel better when they partake in activities that make other people happy and feel worse when you partake in activities that cause other people pain.

Only way that doesn’t happen is if You can find a way to rationalize it, or if you’re able to completely emotionally detach yourself. Or if you’re a sociopath lol.
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:03 PM   #79
Dubnjoy000
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Re: 4-Month Grind: 100k Challenge

First of all, I would like to thank OP for his numerous insights and contributing to the community with his thread ; more of these threads with perspectives are much needed in the poker world, me thinks... That said, I would like to threw in my 2 cents, mainly about the Richcheckmaker-OP polemic shaping up.

I think it might be reductive to assign these 2 diametrical views to a spectrum or in tandem with a natural evolution... For the record, I have been playing professionally for 8 years, spent my first 2-3 years thinking it was the coolest thing ever - well, almost... but you get my drift - to play as a living and I felt as if it was a great form of accomplishment. The 3 years or so were more overshadowed by doubt, questioning and feeling a lack of purpose. Nonetheless, it was not as night and day as I just pointed out, as both eras did overlap somewhat - I am after all highly self-reflective person and also a little vain -, but that was the gist of it, for the most part, I guess (or at least for arguments sake). But I feel slightly differently now.

To stay engaged in either way of thinking, would of frankly made my poker journey emotionally unsustainable in the long run ; I have after all decided to pursue this career for a few more years (3-5), the estimated required amount of time to have enough money saved up for retirement (might still play part time at that point though...). Of course, fixing a date for the end game as well as not presently looking inward into the negative aspects of poker, might be a way to cope with a decision that I am not 100% consequential with... That said, to do otherwise, would be to indulge into depression. Self-doubt. All negative traits that I think are addictive (and complacent) by themselves.

Today I find myself grateful to be able to travel the world nonstop. To encounter amazing and otherworldly experiences. I also find more balance in my life by practicing a tremendous amount of meditation, eating better, some exercise and bringing a positive presence at the table. I have also lowered my volume to about 25-28h/week and take at least 2 months fully off every year. This said - and to counter my point-of-view a little... -, I play mainly online (about 80-20%). The live I do play, consists nowadays mainly of live MTT events (where a sense of excitement is palpable, moreso than in cash games on a Tuesday night, for instance...) or in the Yukon (for 1 month this year), where the dynamic is quite different than in cities. If I was to put in more live volume, with the same group of regs, I think I would be quite depress as well and looking to get out by all means... Which brings me to 2 questions for OP : do you think your titanic volume factors into being so negative towards poker? And do you believe that you have a tendency to indulge into depression?

Best of luck, will be following
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Old 04-17-2018, 02:36 PM   #80
spirit123
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Re: 4-Month Grind: 100k Challenge

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Originally Posted by Dubnjoy000 View Post
Which brings me to 2 questions for OP : do you think your titanic volume factors into being so negative towards poker? And do you believe that you have a tendency to indulge into depression?
Thank you for sharing your experience.

The more I play, the more I don't like the game. I've felt this feeling many times before. It's not the volume per se, but it's having experienced what life is like without poker in my life. I tend to be a bright happy confident guy in general when I'm away from the tables for any significant time. I smile and make friends quite easily. Not so much when I play poker; I become quite dark, reserved, antisocial, snappy. Real smiles are hard to come by. I know I'm doing something that's not aligned with my highest values.

There are probably numerous reasons for my depressive tendencies. Environment is a big one. When I'm in the desert and when I'm playing poker in a casino, I tend to feel these negative feelings. Casinos are near the nut low when it comes to positive vibes. The reflection I see in the people around me disgust me. Being around many sick human beings makes me feel sick, mentally, physically, and emotionally.

I saw you mention vipassana in another thread. I won't go into details, but I thought I was on the monastic path for quite a few years. After having experienced life in monasteries and retreat centers, it's difficult to enter the world of constant conflict that is poker. The contrast is what makes it difficult for my mind to accept. Clearly, I am a low practitioner.

I don't like being depressed. And I probably control it much better now. It's not like it used to be, and I wouldn't consider it severe yet as of right now. But I know when it's creeping up. That's why it's hard for me to play, because I know it doesn't help my mental state. But...money.
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Old 04-17-2018, 03:24 PM   #81
Dubnjoy000
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Re: 4-Month Grind: 100k Challenge

Yeah, I practice vipassana, 2h everyday and at least a 1 month retreat every year. I am also blessed to have 5-10 vipassana meditators working at the casino in Northern Canada (as dealers, pit bosses, waitresses and in the bank), as it is similar minded kind of peeps that end up there, thus contributing to a better casino environment. And I do think that the more volume that I put it in online (7-8 tabling) is directly correlated to personal inflicted depression (I religiously meditate for 15-30 minutes after every 1-2h online session to release it ). So anyhow, I do agree with every point that you made, to a certain degree. I guess that since my decision has been made that I will be pursing this career for the feasible future (am 41 and I want to semi-retire by 45 to focus on meditation and volunteer work), I find it counterproductive to focus on the negative, in my case, at least...

Once again, thx for putting this out there and good luck on your journey friend (especially the non-poker one ).
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Old 04-17-2018, 04:12 PM   #82
Rich Checkmaker
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Re: 4-Month Grind: 100k Challenge

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Originally Posted by spirit123 View Post
Yeah, you're right. Thanks for pointing it out. I was being a bit cruel and I'm a bit ashamed. I have to admit, I used to have the passion that Rich has RE: everything poker. So @Rich, sorry for the post. Came from a bad emotional state.
No hard feelings buddy, I wish you all the best. We have different points of view, and that's ok.



Maybe playing poker in LA is different than wherever you play? Sunshine!! Blue skies!!! WEeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

Gotta get that sunshine man. Warm up your soul!!!!!
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Old Yesterday, 12:12 PM   #83
Nozsr
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Re: 4-Month Grind: 100k Challenge

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Originally Posted by water69 View Post
I think that’s poor logic. You could also say “people are going to do heroin anyway, so it might as well be me who sells it.” That’s obviously an extreme example, but just because something is going to happen anyway, doesn’t mean it’s “good” or “okay” to be a part of it.

Without getting too hippy and saying things like “all life is connected”, I think people tend to feel better when they partake in activities that make other people happy and feel worse when you partake in activities that cause other people pain.

Only way that doesn’t happen is if You can find a way to rationalize it, or if you’re able to completely emotionally detach yourself. Or if you’re a sociopath lol.
This remark misses the main point.

You have voluntarily (one would presume) chosen to play poker. You (also presumably) are exercising your free will and trying to win.

Who are you planning to win from? The winning players?
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