Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Poker Goals & Challenges Post your threads logging your travels up the poker ladder as you achieve your poker goals and dreams. "Challenges" does NOT mean prop bets, wagers, etc.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-26-2019, 07:31 AM   #326
Everest17
veteran
 
Everest17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: @beyondtilt
Posts: 3,217
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

In before hooker rakeback is an std
Everest17 is offline  
Old 01-26-2019, 08:00 AM   #327
meale
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 9,840
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

Guy on my right has his net worth in his stack, calls my 4bet OOP with 75o, donks 3 streets to river the gutter, wp wp.



Lost a couple 350bb pots today, punted into the stone cold nuts in one pot but I think it might have been okay? going to do some analysis now!
meale is offline  
Old 01-26-2019, 10:01 PM   #328
gotgot123
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,487
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

how much % you lose cashing out?
and do you still need to trust someone not ****ing you over and stealing all your $ if you win big?

i imagine collusion still happens so much. just too difficult to stop on these sites. wont be anywhere near sophisticated to catch properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meale View Post

Tbf there was hardly any in the games I played, and it was usually pretty fkn obvious when it did happen.


.

this sounds silly? the ones you caught = easy to catch, otherwise there is hardly any? Not everyone is a ****** when colluding. Even just playing how you normally play, knowing 6cards would be huge advantage and super difficult to catch

Last edited by gotgot123; 01-26-2019 at 10:20 PM.
gotgot123 is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 12:58 AM   #329
meale
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 9,840
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

Quote:
Originally Posted by gotgot123 View Post
how much % you lose cashing out?
and do you still need to trust someone not ****ing you over and stealing all your $ if you win big?

i imagine collusion still happens so much. just too difficult to stop on these sites. wont be anywhere near sophisticated to catch properly.




this sounds silly? the ones you caught = easy to catch, otherwise there is hardly any? Not everyone is a ****** when colluding. Even just playing how you normally play, knowing 6cards would be huge advantage and super difficult to catch
About 2% cashout fee. Ofc it's a trust system, but I've never had an issue cashing out in the past 18 months playing on these sites full time. After a few cashouts, you develop a trust with your agent. I don't personally know anyone who has been fk'd over by their agent tbh.

It's impossible to say how many players actually knew 6 cards at the tables, I don't see why everyone's saying it's rampant because no one has any proof of this being the case. It also doesn't matter how many dead cards you know when you're playing like a spastic.
meale is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 06:25 AM   #330
RV-
grinder
 
RV-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 412
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

The teamplay on Chinese apps is something that can totally destroy you, your time and your +EV.

For example this hand:


You might think that those guys are droolers, but they're both regs and have been playing like regs so far. I've been suspecting strange stuff and for me this just confirmed it.
Initially I thought that stuff like this is easily exploitable, but it's not. At least not easily and the variance is ****ing huge. Imagine how often you'll have mediocre hands with this line and how often you'll be able to see the showdown? Or how often you'll bet and have to fold vs checkraises+calls or shoves? I know this looks ******ed on first sight, but when you don't know what the ****er holds it's insanely hard to play against.

Also stuff like this:



$85 down the drain. And there's NOTHING you can do about it. And unlike teamplayers who build "ladders" (call, call, sqz, 4bet and/or 1 bets, we call, other x/r and so on) there are also those, who dominate you in more subtle ways even in 1v1 pots using blocker effects and big bets.

Teamplayers usually sit close to each other and have pretty similar stats. If your redline is usually breakeven or in slight decline and it suddenly starts dropping like crazy it might mean that you're getting owned by teamplayers. Pretty much every popular club is infested with this **** on limits 102040 and higher (and still plenty on 51020). And it has gotten A LOT worse up to a point that some clubs are unplayable on your own. Unless you want to burn money that is.

P.S. And mate, cut the **** with "proof". This is not bovada where you can see everyones hole cards and have proof. Here you're completely helpless and alone. No agent, affiliate or club owner will give a **** about you and your concerns regarding teamplay. And even if someone will, teamplayers will just create new accounts and do the same **** over again.

Last edited by RV-; 01-27-2019 at 06:55 AM.
RV- is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 07:14 AM   #331
meale
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 9,840
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

Your proof in hand 1 is absolutely meaningless. Looks to me like you just stacked an idiot.

Hand 2 is an example of a super obvious one. Tag he players, leave the table, get over it.

Or better yet get off PM!
meale is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 07:27 AM   #332
z0mgtiltz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
z0mgtiltz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: GetDatSzechuan McNuggetSauce
Posts: 10,857
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

A lotta racist trash ITT, unsubbed.
z0mgtiltz is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 07:41 AM   #333
RV-
grinder
 
RV-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 412
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

This is not "proof" by definition. There can't be any proof on Pokermaster. One would need to have HH of all alleged teamplayers, which is impossible. So it's very easy for you to ignore this by claiming "need proof", lol. Very convenient position. And fwiw I wasn't expecting you to acknowledge "rampant teamplay"...



And you (PM players) won't see the non-obvious teamplay or even be able to recognize it at the very moment it's happening. You'll just dismiss it as someone being overly aggro and or lucky to have the top of his range. And you'll just slowly bleed chips.

Oh and one more thing. It doesn't matter if the teamplay is obvious or not. Money lost is money lost.
RV- is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 08:08 AM   #334
gotgot123
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,487
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

Quote:
Originally Posted by meale View Post
It's impossible to say how many players actually knew 6 cards at the tables, I don't see why everyone's saying it's rampant because no one has any proof of this being the case. It also doesn't matter how many dead cards you know when you're playing like a spastic.
i get it, you're trying to get people to sign up through you so you can get some passive income, but cut the crap and be honest with people. Dont try to make it seem all rosey on these apps because it isnt. Collusion is rampant. I know stars guys who go on these sites and collude. Then again, you might just be playing too low to properly experience it.

If its happening on PM, its happening on PK. Yeh more risk. Its near impossible to stop if done right when youre playing on emulators.


the classic "stack an idiot" line.

5 second clip from joey at 1:42


edit: Also didnt you say one club owner actually hired people to collude? Or is this another case of "the only collusion happening is the ones we caught"?

Last edited by gotgot123; 01-27-2019 at 08:25 AM.
gotgot123 is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 09:18 AM   #335
GudGambol
newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 39
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

should have checked gotgots link lol

yeah anybody who is saying there is no rampant cheating on the apps is clearly lying for his own financial interest
GudGambol is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 09:56 AM   #336
meale
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 9,840
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

Quote:
Originally Posted by z0mgtiltz View Post
A lotta racist trash ITT, unsubbed.
Cya

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV- View Post
This is not "proof" by definition. There can't be any proof on Pokermaster. One would need to have HH of all alleged teamplayers, which is impossible. So it's very easy for you to ignore this by claiming "need proof", lol. Very convenient position. And fwiw I wasn't expecting you to acknowledge "rampant teamplay"...



And you (PM players) won't see the non-obvious teamplay or even be able to recognize it at the very moment it's happening. You'll just dismiss it as someone being overly aggro and or lucky to have the top of his range. And you'll just slowly bleed chips.

Oh and one more thing. It doesn't matter if the teamplay is obvious or not. Money lost is money lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GudGambol View Post
should have checked gotgots link lol

yeah anybody who is saying there is no rampant cheating on the apps is clearly lying for his own financial interest
I won nearly 100 buyins last month, so if there's collusion I couldn't care less. Secondlly, I'm no longer referring players to PM because of all this ****. PK is NOT the same as PM and should be much safer in terms of cheating. Time will tell I guess.
meale is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 10:21 AM   #337
BigAisaOK
old hand
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,461
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

Quote:
Originally Posted by z0mgtiltz View Post
A lotta racist trash ITT, unsubbed.
Amen, glad someone finally said it Teddy.
BigAisaOK is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 10:37 AM   #338
meale
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 9,840
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

Omg someone said wog, wasism everywhere! Grow up lol
meale is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 10:46 AM   #339
Bluegrassplayer
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Bluegrassplayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: China
Posts: 36,352
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

Considering the topic that was about as civilized as it gets, and something was actually accomplished.
Bluegrassplayer is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 10:48 AM   #340
mealenoscamplz
banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 1
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

Hi meale,

You were shilling the first site in every thread you could(trying to get that RB money and monthly affiliate money for the HUD, table seaters, etc). How does that make sense if the games are legit good at good stakes? Yeah, affiliate money pays a **** ton as long as people breakeven, they make you a fortune while you fake your HH's to look like you're doing better than breakeven. I mean dude, that 75o hand.. Why not even post it? All you did was post a screenshot and expect people to believe you? Yeah sure. (But now you'll fake it)

So the day you find a new site that gives you more money, you **** on the previous one(that you used to say was the best.. just 2 days ago!)

You're extremely dishonest. You've made it seem like you were some big boy at the gym but you're just a skinny fat dude with terrible lifts that spends all his time researching gym stuff.


It's sad that people don't see that someone who surrounds himself with only hookers and other incels isnt a trustworthy person. You were a barely winning 25-50nl player in aussie until somehow someone made you an affiliate on asian sites. Your exact story was very common a few years ago with italian sites. Most people couldnt beat those high rake sites because of collusion, riggedness or whatever was the problem of the room.

z0mgtilt has it right, you're just a sad racist that finaly feels like a winner around desperate hookers trying to hustle people into allowing you to not work for a living.
mealenoscamplz is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 10:53 AM   #341
mirage01
banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,151
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

lul
mirage01 is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 11:38 AM   #342
IJustClick
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 260
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

Quote:
Originally Posted by meale View Post
Grow up lol
Says the guy who's acting just as every other sexpat white trash in SEA lol
IJustClick is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 11:41 AM   #343
Kelvis
banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 8,737
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

Quote:
Originally Posted by z0mgtiltz View Post
A lotta racist trash ITT, unsubbed.
Retreat to the safe space!

Oh and it's probably not a good idea to promote sites that are 1) illegal and 2) have a very high probability of resulting in people getting scammed

So many scam threads, you're now in a position where you can claim relative innocence when **** goes down. If you continue and it becomes yet another story you're going to have to own it too.
Kelvis is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 01:54 PM   #344
Fatboy54
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,839
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

hahaha

Just love it when the Poker Outrage Bus rolls into town

Anybody who has followed Meale long enough (clearly some above are recent arrivals) knows he makes the odd dumbass offensive post, but what bluegrassplayer said +1 for me. (and I was first to raise a yellow card, so I'm clear).

Far farther read a poker blog I can believe in, as opposed to some of the fantasy troll b/s some like to follow.

Scared of getting scammed on dodgy poker sites...caveat emptor. Play on Stars like me (coz I'm a rec innit) but then don't whinge about Stars on here. Free world online (well for most of us anyway).

And as for the negative reviews of Pattaya Gone Large...that's just jealousy ffs. Her in doors kicks me out, I'm on the next flight...

Still following you ABC badboy

PS

Quote:
Says the guy who's acting just as every other sexpat white trash in SEA lol
Pattaya only exists in its current form because it became the go to brothel town for American GIs during the Vietnam War. Make of that what you will.

Last edited by Fatboy54; 01-27-2019 at 02:02 PM.
Fatboy54 is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 03:05 PM   #345
Xenophon
adept
 
Xenophon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 789
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

Quote:
Originally Posted by z0mgtiltz View Post
A lotta racist trash ITT, unsubbed.
Later [insert racist slur here]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mealenoscamplz View Post
Hi meale,

You were shilling the first site in every thread you could(trying to get that RB money and monthly affiliate money for the HUD, table seaters, etc). How does that make sense if the games are legit good at good stakes? Yeah, affiliate money pays a **** ton as long as people breakeven, they make you a fortune while you fake your HH's to look like you're doing better than breakeven. I mean dude, that 75o hand.. Why not even post it? All you did was post a screenshot and expect people to believe you? Yeah sure. (But now you'll fake it)

So the day you find a new site that gives you more money, you **** on the previous one(that you used to say was the best.. just 2 days ago!)

You're extremely dishonest. You've made it seem like you were some big boy at the gym but you're just a skinny fat dude with terrible lifts that spends all his time researching gym stuff.


It's sad that people don't see that someone who surrounds himself with only hookers and other incels isnt a trustworthy person. You were a barely winning 25-50nl player in aussie until somehow someone made you an affiliate on asian sites. Your exact story was very common a few years ago with italian sites. Most people couldnt beat those high rake sites because of collusion, riggedness or whatever was the problem of the room.

z0mgtilt has it right, you're just a sad racist that finaly feels like a winner around desperate hookers trying to hustle people into allowing you to not work for a living.
Ok, you are just z0mgtilt making a second account to agree with yourself. Pretty douchy if you ask me.

Go pound some sand and bugger off if you don't like the content ITT
Xenophon is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 04:35 PM   #346
WereBeer
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,526
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

Quote:
Originally Posted by z0mgtiltz View Post
A lotta racist trash ITT, unsubbed.
Eat a steak, men weren't meant to live on soy alone.
WereBeer is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 04:47 PM   #347
Rahm93
journeyman
 
Rahm93's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 342
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

lol @ all the shilling itt

times must be rough
Rahm93 is offline  
Old 01-27-2019, 04:48 PM   #348
tgiggity
Pooh-Bah
 
tgiggity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,337
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

I feel like I'm usually pretty quick to call out racism/bigotry but tbh I haven't seen anything all that bad itt. though tbh I've never heard the word "wog" before and idk if it's the same as something like the n word. but the discussion seemed pretty constructive overall. this is coming from someone who's been called an sjw a lot of times
tgiggity is offline  
Old 01-28-2019, 02:07 AM   #349
meale
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 9,840
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

FIRST OF ALL, it's good to see a bit of spice ITT as it was getting a bit dry recently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer View Post
Considering the topic that was about as civilized as it gets, and something was actually accomplished.
Yeah, anyone who actually read mine and Nefirmative/Ben's discussion on the topic would understand there's no malice on my behalf. Looks like those having a sook didn't read the part about the linguistic variability of the word "wog" either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mealenoscamplz View Post
Hi meale,

You were shilling the first site in every thread you could(trying to get that RB money and monthly affiliate money for the HUD, table seaters, etc).
When you make an account solely to waste my time, make sure you get your facts straight first alright? Next time you do it, your point might actually carry some weight. Let's address your nonsense now.

I've never received a dime from affiliate money through HUD, table seaters or anything. You can ask Melea if you don't believe me. I literally made my first post re EliteHud last night and didn't even include an affiliate link...

Quote:
How does that make sense if the games are legit good at good stakes?
Maybe I want my players to have the best experience possible? Idk.

Quote:
Yeah, affiliate money pays a **** ton
Wrong again. It pays fkall and I've never made any affiliate money anyway. The money I make is from rakeback from players who choose to take the responsibility to play in the games.

Quote:
as long as people breakeven, they make you a fortune while you fake your HH's to look like you're doing better than breakeven. I mean dude, that 75o hand.. Why not even post it? All you did was post a screenshot and expect people to believe you? Yeah sure. (But now you'll fake it)
How about the fact that you can't upload Chinese HHs with the 2+2 converter? I'd love to post HHs ITT but it can't be done in any practical way.

Quote:
So the day you find a new site that gives you more money, you **** on the previous one(that you used to say was the best.. just 2 days ago!)
It's not about me getting more money. It's about my players' earning potentiaal being higher in the new environment. Why do you think I've switched from Pokermaster to *********? Games went south. I'll be the first to admit PM is a ****storm right now.

I'm advertising PK because it's the best option for people who are proactive and actually want to seek the most profitable games.

Quote:
You're extremely dishonest. You've made it seem like you were some big boy at the gym but you're just a skinny fat dude with terrible lifts that spends all his time researching gym stuff.
Lmfao that's actually one of the best ad hominems I've copped over the years. wp.


Quote:
z0mgtilt has it right, you're just a sad racist that finaly feels like a winner around desperate hookers trying to hustle people into allowing you to not work for a living.
It's actually so ridiculously sad that people like you exist. This reminds me of a passage I read last night from 7 Habits of Highly Effective People wherein Cal Newport talks about a professor who had made a particular administrator the center of his life. The professor couldn't stand the admin and developed severe hatred toward this person to the point where he was considering leaving the university simply because of this one person.

Newport asked bluntly of the professor, "why have you made this person the center of your life?" To which the professor didn't know how to react at first. Eventually they came to the understanding that the professor had to take responsibility for his reactions to other people and that he'd acted irresponsibly with regard to his counter-dependence of this person.

What I'm saying is you need to seriously evaluate your life if you've made me the most important thing in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IJustClick View Post
Says the guy who's acting just as every other sexpat white trash in SEA lol
k

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvis View Post
it's probably not a good idea to promote sites that are 1) illegal and 2) have a very high probability of resulting in people getting scammed
Again this is just false. I've played on these sites for nearly 2 years and never been scammed. Of the 5-10 chinese app players I regularly talk with, none of them I can recall have been scammed. It's possible one or two of them have been but I've not hear about it.

If anything the risk is on the agents side of things, as bankers are the ones that run off with funds and we're left guaranteeing players deposits and results while ebing out of pocket.

Quote:
So many scam threads, you're now in a position where you can claim relative innocence when **** goes down. If you continue and it becomes yet another story you're going to have to own it too.
If "**** goes down" then that's that. People understand the risks when they choose to join these sites and they need to assume responsibility for that. As joeingram said, you need to be vigilant and smart about this ****. If you were playing in a club that has said they're taking 10% rake, 15% action, and 10% fee for no insurance, alarm bells should be going off in your head, your agent should withdraw you from that club because it's obvious it's about to implode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatboy54 View Post
hahaha

Just love it when the Poker Outrage Bus rolls into town

Anybody who has followed Meale long enough (clearly some above are recent arrivals) knows he makes the odd dumbass offensive post, but what bluegrassplayer said +1 for me. (and I was first to raise a yellow card, so I'm clear).
Thaanks bud, I know most of the OGs in here who have followed me for a while for the most part understand my character. Obviously I rustle some feathers every once in a while and if people don't like that, they can GTFO (or, preferably, create alt accounts to berate me in here for my entertainment).

Quote:
Far farther read a poker blog I can believe in, as opposed to some of the fantasy troll b/s some like to follow.


Quote:
Scared of getting scammed on dodgy poker sites...caveat emptor. Play on Stars like me (coz I'm a rec innit) but then don't whinge about Stars on here. Free world online (well for most of us anyway).
Yeah, this. If people don't want to risk playing on these apps, they don't have to lol. People are acting as though I'm scamming people, but really I'm just an agent and make available games to people who choose to accept the risks. And FWIW, switching to apps was the best decision I ever made in my poker career, and I know a lot of people think the same way.

Quote:
er in doors kicks me out, I'm on the next flight...
LET'S GO BABY!

Quote:
Pattaya only exists in its current form because it became the go to brothel town for American GIs during the Vietnam War. Make of that what you will.
Yes indeed it's purely a function of us white trash! Although, I wonder if the sex tourism is doing a service or disservice here? I know gogo girls who make 40k baht a month SALARY, NOT INCLUDING people paying them to fk. These girls are literally making more money per month that I was working in a factory back in Australia.

Meanwhile I know a girl with biochem degree working an office job for 20k a month and seriously struggling.

So, philosophical question for discussion, is the sex tourism industry here +EV or -EV for the people of Pattaya!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenophon View Post
Later [insert racist slur here]



Ok, you are just z0mgtilt making a second account to agree with yourself. Pretty douchy if you ask me.

Go pound some sand and bugger off if you don't like the content ITT
lmao


Quote:
Originally Posted by tgiggity View Post
I feel like I'm usually pretty quick to call out racism/bigotry but tbh I haven't seen anything all that bad itt. though tbh I've never heard the word "wog" before and idk if it's the same as something like the n word. but the discussion seemed pretty constructive overall. this is coming from someone who's been called an sjw a lot of times
Yeah, anyone who is genuinely outraged by the content ITT are just reflecting their own insecurities onto others. Pretty sad tbh.

================================================

Fk me, what a waste of time typing all that has been. Going to go lie in the sun for a bit, the have a coaching session with the one and only DownandUnder before starting the grind! Finally got EliteHUD sorted with HM2 now, so I can start posting graphs again.
meale is offline  
Old 01-28-2019, 07:25 AM   #350
DonkeyRock
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 351
Re: 2019 - BALLZ TO THE WALL

Thread getting seriously derailed by idiots. Back to poker grind, talking about diets and Thailand lifestyle please. We are here for the entertainment and light hearted discussions not trolls. If you want to do that **** head over to NVG or BBV.

Hope the new site treats you well Meale
DonkeyRock is offline  

Closed Thread
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive