I have begun to think a lot about these subjects too lately, both money management and personal growth. I will definitely check out the books and just wanted to say that your pg&c is a true inspiration!

Keep up the good work!

Thanks guys, I really appreciate it!

Don't be shy to rate this thread as 5 stars too

Ya good point, I think when we aren't ready to embrace the concepts it's easy to write it off as cheesy and try to discredit it.

Nice, you have a very solid approach to poker and life it seems. A lot of poker players still are hung up on the mental dream of the "baller lifestyle". I'm more frugal now than ever, but for most of my life half the value of buying something was not so much the item itself but being able to tell other people that I bought it and fulfill my basic human need of significance that way.

you win the award for least baller pgc thread

can relate a lot to this, its basically the reason i dropped out of college. ill definitely check the book out, thanks dan

Have this on my coffee table per your recommendation. Starting it soon.

Love this book. I have enjoyed all of Gladwell's books but none were quite as good as Outliers

Adding this to my list too




I'm currently reading Predictably Irrational and while it's not specifically designed as a self help there is a lot of stuff in it that makes me realize the non-thinking decisions I make all the time that aren't based on any 'real' data. One particularly interesting thing I picked up was the idea of self herding. Herding is basically the concept that we tend to do things when other people do them because if they are doing them it must be a good idea. Someone is standing in line to see a movie we think that movie might be pretty good bc why else is that guy waiting in line. So we decide to go see that movie also. We don't always think those exact words but thats the subconscious thought process. Self herding is the same thing, but instead of lining up behind someone else we 'line up' behind out previous actions. We decide that if we did it before and it was a good idea then, it must be a good idea now. And after each repetition there is less and less thought put into the action. I see a lot of parallels in this to spending habits and poker decisions.

That's very interesting, makes a lot of sense.

Just played a short afternoon session. Booked a loser, and felt like I was on my A game. My variance tolerance, presence/focus, and structure/process were all on point. I had a few thoughts when experiencing negative variance that I wanted to vent out and explore.

I have been working on winner's tilt, and today I was thinking about "winner's guilt". In the same way I can experience injustice tilt when running poorly, I can experience a different form of injustice tilt when running hot. On some level, I feel like I don't deserve to be running above expectation, and almost don't want it. Also, I create negative thoughts about it undermining my skill (ie sarcastically "oh look I won another flip wow look how skillful I am"). Losing a flip can provide an unhealthy release for those feelings for me, kind of in the same way that winning flip can temporarily erase tilt symptoms.

I was talking to skraper about a similar concept the other day, and that helped me identify another nuance of that feeling today. By experiencing some negative variance, I was almost viewing that as a way to shield myself from failure. Specifically, if I keep running well and getting good results that might result in higher expectations put upon me both by myself and by others. If I fail to meet those expectations, although ultimately I will leverage that failure as part of the normal growth process, in the short term I may feel bad. When an upswing stops, I can feel relieved of that pressure. This is dangerous, because it can create a mindset where I will be prone to subconsciously make worse decisions at the tables.

Writing this out will help be more self aware of the finer points of this aspect of my winner's tilt, and will help me continue to increase my ability to maximize my A game frequency when experiencing positive variance. I don't even like the term "positive variance", I think the word positive has too much connotation associated with it. I think I will try to refer to it as above expectation variance or below expectation variance - I don't even want to put any sort of "good" or "bad" quantifier on the different types of variance, and that is very tricky because words like positive/negative or winning/losing can trigger automatic psychological biases.

I'm open to suggestions for a healthier terminology.

Considering using "yin" and "yang" instead, since neither word has any sort of positive or negative connotation associated with it, and our default mental framework automatically views the terms as balanced.

running "higher than/above my exp value" or "lower than/below my exp value"

I don't think that phrase has any positive or negative connotation, its just the fact.

Personally, I try to not even acknowledge variance in small samples. kind of like when you're dating someone new, you always have to act like you don't care and that this happens to you all the time. That's how I treat variance, I just act like it doesn't matter or that its not something worth getting worked up over because up and down stretches happen to me all the time.

When I run above EV, I don't act high and when I run below EV I don't [u]act[/i] low (or at least I try). No matter how high or low I'm feeling inside, my external body language is the same and keeping it consistent tells my internal self and my mind how exactly it needs to behave. It honestly doesn't take long for my internal to match up with my external. Maybe a few minutes of faking it and then its reality.

I've been doing that for a while now, avoiding using terms like "downswings" and "upswings" and "break-even stretch" and "last 100 hours" or even "last 300 hours", etc just not thinking about it - on the table or off the table.

All I care about is the whole 1k+ hour sample and that's the only thing I really acknowledge. I'm not sure how this affects my subconscious and if I'm bottling up or suppressing the emotions... but I just treat it as "fake it til you make it". If you act like the man, you're the man. If you act like variance doesn't bother you or elate you, then it won't.

Some ways I've practiced "fake it til you make it"... when I'm at the table and take a horrendous beat, I always make sure to laugh and make a joke, say nice hand, congratulate the other guy, whatever it takes to show the table that IDGAF that I just got 3 outered in a 2k pot or whatever. Inside, I'm probably steaming and my first reaction in my head is "why me? why do I have to go through this? Why is it that I'm at a table full of guys limp/calling J5s and I can't win a pot? etc etc etc" I'm sure you know exactly what thoughts inevitably come through your head at first. But if you don't verbalize those thoughts or allow those thoughts to shape any of your external actions, if you just say "nice hand, dude " or jokingly sometimes if I'm friendly with the guy I'll be like "you mother****er, you always kick my ass!! " just ANYTHING to show your internal mind that externally that you do not care, your mind will feel that and adopt that "i dont care" attitude as well.

And when other people look at you as the guy who can take a bad beat without whining or get lucky without pumping his fist, who is fun, who doesn't care about winning/losing... you're going to "become it" (i think this concept was actually in one of the TED vids you posted).

I know this example doesn't directly relate you, but I know the same things can be true for online poker, its just a mindset of not really even acknowledging the short term with your external actions.

Maybe someone will then say to me, "so you play like a robot?" and I'd say no. I love poker, I enjoy playing the game. I don't need to acknowledge short term results with my face or my words or my actions to have fun.

Happy with my grind in my evening sessions. I was fortunate to run well, and I was also playing well and in a good state.

206/1000 hours
20.6% complete

pace: 197 hours

I had a thought at the tables the other day I wanted to write about and share. (as an aside, I'm doing better at keeping to my "daydream system", where when my mind starts to wander at the tables but the thought is worth exploring, I write it down and come back to it later and refocus on being present.)

I was thinking about how much I used to root for certain cards to come out, especially in all in flip type situations. If concentrated super hard as if to somehow affect the outcome via mental powers, and happened to win, I would sort of feel like I did something good. I think that this was an unhealthy way for me to feel like I was in control of my life and of my destiny, at a time where I wasn't really on solid footing (not just financially, but psychologically, emotionally, etc.). If I won that flip, I could have a feeling of "see, I CAN make it as a poker player". I could believe that maybe this could be the start of an epic run and turn everything around. I could believe that I somehow MADE myself win that flip, like I willed to happen via telepathy or something, and thus I was actually in control of my future. Similarly, if I lost that flip, I would not just react to losing the flip, but react to the totality of the feeling that I was not in full control of my life. When I would lose, then I also would feel like "oh of course, guys like me don't win flips, that's for the guys on TV living charmed lives", and have other feelings of despondency.

I would do things like try to predict when I was going to run good or bad, and move up or down in stakes a level temporarily accordingly. If I happened to run well when chasing a loss, I would feel like I made some sort of savvy decision and take temporary solace in the feeling that I took action and received a financial reward for my action.

I can see looking back that when you don't really feel like you are trying your best and giving your best effort, and you don't really believe in and feel confidence in the processes you are following and the path you are on, that instead you end up trying to fulfill these needs in unhealthy ways, and find ways to try to trick yourself into feeling like you are doing the right things, or on a good path or in control. Of course this self deception doesn't last long, and also sets us up to have such a painful reaction when things don't go our way.

It's scary to take full responsibility for our results, and not attribute things to variance. If I feel like "if I could only start running a little better, I could turn this whole thing around", it implies that a) my success or failure is out of my control and that b) I'm already doing everything that is within my control perfectly. On some level we know we are lying to ourselves, and that makes the whole thing all the more difficult to deal with, and all the more difficult to honestly self assess our game and our weaknesses - since implicit in admitting our failures and weaknesses is admitting that variance is not the only factor involved, and much of the equation actually IS within our control, and thus shouldering the blame and responsibility for not achieving what we want to achieve.

I think these concepts apply to a much broader picture. I recently read one view that self esteem is directly tied to feelings about whether or not we are in control of our lives. Specifically, how much time we spend thinking about what we can control vs what we can not control. This applies to a much wider scope than poker, ie "the person I'm in a relationship with isn't <whatever> and I want them to be and our relationship sucks" or "my boss is such an idiot work will always suck". We can sometimes really dwell on this sort of thing for extended periods of time (shower, driving, etc) and come to these conclusions like "oh man things would be so much better if only ....", and then ultimately feel depressed because this thing we hinge our future happiness upon is not something we have any control over. If instead we focus on what strategies and specific actions we can personally take to try to better our relationship with that person, or if we focus on taking the necessary steps to find a more fulfilling job, these hopeless unfixable problems become so much more manageable and their scope and implications are reduced.

What I'm coming around to with all this rambling, is that for me, improving my ability to handle variance, and also just generally improving myself as a poker player, have turned out to far greater endeavors than just poker related stuff. A lot of this stuff was tied up in my overall approach to life and view of the world. For me, changing my mindset at the poker tables required a fundamental paradigm shift in my entire mental framework (and our mental framework is really our whole being).

My experience certainly does not apply to everyone, or even most people, but I'm sure there are other players out there struggling with similar things. For those like me I think it's important to understand there is A LOT tied up in our ability to handle variance and to grow from failure, and to understand that it is really not at all just a poker specific skill but something much deeper. That is great news, since the benefits of improving my mindset extend way beyond the poker tables.

Also, one other thought I wanted to make sure to write down. As much progress as I have made in my mental game, I have to always be mindful of the fact that everything comes from EFFORT. I have to work hard to continue to do well. I have to try hard to stick to the processes I have created for myself, and to continue to improve those processes. That effort and those processes are what allows me to do my best.

It's really easy to write some long post and wax philosophic about my mental game journey, and have a feeling like now I am some sort of sage fountain of wisdom. As if now I have it all figured out. There is never any figuring it all out, and my fulfillment comes from the continued process of effort and growth. This is a lifelong endeavor. I've said before there is no "beating the game" or getting to "max level", I have to constantly be trying hard to do my best. The times I really am giving my best effort, I feel much more fulfilled. The notion of reaching a certain skill level and then not having to try anymore is a total fallacy, but more importantly it is a hollow dream that sounds good at first but in reality would not be fulfilling.

Also, I have to be mindful of previous posts I made about potential avoidance behavior tied up in a fear of increasing expectations, and then possible failure to meet those expectations. Last night I was originally planning on putting in a session, but I was short on sleep and had a headache and also wanted to spend some quality time with my girlfriend. I think it actually was a good decision not to play, but I need to be careful to not find ways to justify lack of hours.

If you compiled these thoughts into a book, I would buy it.

Thanks dude, means a lot to me.

Not so much because I want to write a book, but it is nice to feel like I'm helping others in some way, even just a little bit.

The primary purpose of me writing out my thoughts is that it forces me to dwell on them a bit more deeply in order to collect them into an organized fashion that I can write down. Additionally, by making them "public", it makes them more "real" to me.

However, I really do hope that other people can also benefit, and even though my motives aren't truly altruistic, my hope is to serve both purposes.

Very cool thread, and impressive graph.

Nice results for even nicer efforts!

Be assured even the most rambled of posts (using your word, not specifically saying you ramble too much ((it takes a rambler to know a rambler and appreciate one though)) ) are always helpful in my own pursuit of mental game and overall self improvement.

Some of your comparisons and applications of many of your key learnings in regards to poker and to things outside of poker have been spot on in my own experiences as well so it's nice to stop and reflect on them when reading your in depth analysis and self reflections.

I have found in this latest chapter of my own life and grind poker journey that there are so many instances where the things I am learning in regards to improving my mental approach to playing poker have direct application to other aspects of my life as well, much like you have pointed out and determined in your own learnings and have been so open to sharing for the benefit of those of us following along here.

Thanks for sharing such depths and analysis and as always keep up the EFFORT and the results for sure will continue just the same!

Thanks guys.

Played some 10/20 yesterday. It's not the first time I have sat at a 10/20 table, but I was there for about 1.5 hours which is likely my longest session at a table at that limit. A few observations:

- I could definitely feel the intensity. My heart started racing whenever I would get in a pot, that sort of thing.

- I was prone to being fancy for no reason. I see this ALL THE TIME in students when they are shot taking. All of a sudden they go from a super solid winner at nl50 to someone just trying way too hard at nl100 and kill their winrate through fancy play syndrome. I think some of it comes comes from overestimating my opponents or underestimating myself, and a lack of stable confidence in these games.

- I also took some lines to "protect my hand" in spots where it was uncalled for, and by "protecting my hand" I moreso just isolated myself against the top of their range. Again, I see this very commonly in students who are trying to control variance or avoid losing (and the funny part is the behavior actually makes losing more likely since it lowers our winrate).

- I got stacked by the table fish for full stacks and I did a good job of handling it mentally. I was happy that I was able to recognize the whole situation as a great learning opportunity and a necessary step in the growth process. Similarly, it's OK I get worked up at a new limit and mess up some hands along the way, in fact it's inevitable and valuable practice.

- I was down 2500+ after my afternoon session, and after spending some time in meetings and coachings I was able to come back and play well in my evening sessions. I was happy with my ability to keep playing well after taking a loss and stick to my processes. Good mental game scores yesterday.

- I ended up coming back and booking a winner. With an hour or so left, I was getting close to even and started thinking about my "epic comeback story". It was very difficult to keep my mind off of results. I kept telling myself that I am not trying to write an "epic comeback story", I am trying to write an "epic kept playing my best through the ups and downs story". I want to feel proud that I did my best, not that I happened to book a winner. It's a very important distinction, but it's hard to keep the right mindset. I literally had to remind myself of this probably 20+ times over my last hour at the table. It's kind of like quitting smoking and having that craving for a cigarette, or having an itch that you want to scratch but you are mentally refusing to do it. It's difficult and requires a lot of mental effort, but that's just how we grow and improve. If it was easy, I guess that would make poker less profitable so in that regard I'm glad it requires hard work.

(by the way, a lot of players can relate to these types of feelings specifically regarding checking their cashier balance. Have you ever gone into session telling yourself you weren't going to look at your cashier, and then after a while you desperately wanted to peek and finally broke down and peeked? If so, you can relate - and you also have an issue to work on. There was once a time where I would literally refresh my cashier and graph like 20 times per session, almost every few minutes. If this is you, and you just can't resist that urge to keep checking the cashier, realize that is quite likely symptomatic of some very real mental game issues you need to work through)

Played 2/5 live last night at a local joint. I played well, and feel good and excited about the prospect of improving my live poker game. I did a good job of actively TRYING to release my ego. It's tricky, as I find an urge to kind of do little things to "look good" at the table to reenforce my standing as the best player or one of the best players at the table. I did a good job of combating that, and it's interesting to see how many bad habits along those lines I had picked up over time. It's also enlightening to watch everyone else making such efforts to validate themselves and recognizing it all in a different light now. My mental game felt strong, and it felt fairly easy to play my best and pull the trigger and make the folds in spots where I can tell that in the past I might not have - partly because I was thinking of how it would look and partly because I was trying to control variance through nonstandard lines (and not succeeding obviously lol).

Took some time away from the tables the last couple days. Put in a session tonight, and got beat up. I ran poorly, and I think I did a pretty good job of making the most of it and sticking to a good process and doing my best. I'm looking forward to reviewing the hands. There are a couple spots I need to firm up my baseline understanding of my ranges in, and I will be interested to see what hands I misplayed in the moment that seem clear in review. On the whole I'm happy with my effort and think I did about as well as I could have reasonably expected myself to do.

I'm thinking about making some small investments that hope oil prices are bottoming out. I've looked around at a variety of options, and I think I'm settling on a few ETFs:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=OIL
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=USL
(oil futures - directly tied to crude oil prices)

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=FRAK
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=VDE
(equity indexes - stocks in energy companies)

added to yahoo watchlist, started dabbling recently via robinhood

Sick read Dan! Can relate!!

Good day of grinding today. I was feeling lazy, and really fighting the mental battle where I justify different reasons to avoid playing. I eventually fought through and committed to grinding, and I feel like I played well and tried hard today. I haven't been playing as much lately, so I had to kind of fight through some mental game rust in my first session. In my second session, I was up a bunch and ended up losing most of it back at the end. I feel happy with my play and my grinding process, and losing at the end didn't bother me nearly as much as it has at other times in the past. I feel like I noticed a bit of mental game progress there. Now I need to keep working at it and reenforcing it.

I just am coming back from a long week off of not getting any hands in and I am battling with this a little bit. It wasn't a week long vacation where I got to really relax and sit back and enjoy a break, so it's been a bit tougher to knock off the rust in my first few small sessions back. My warm up process feels like it prob needs some work to get into the 'zone' quicker, but it's been difficult to detach myself mentally from a lot that is going on with my new move.

Any thoughts or tips on what has helped you in the past when dealing with this type of mental battle?

Appreciate the input as always!

Honestly the best thing for knocking off the rust is just getting in there and putting in the time. I find that when I'm playing regularly and immersed in the daily grind is when I tend be playing my best poker. I just kind of have to accept that after some time off my first couple sessions I'm going to feel a bit rusty and also suffer from motivation issues (and other mental game issues), and just knuckle down and work through it and be confident that as long as I try hard I'll be back in the groove soon enough.

I reviewed this session with skraper the other day.

To my dismay, I did NOT play very well.

What I did a good job of was avoiding any frustration spew, and sticking to the plan and putting in the time in the face of adversity, and trying to work through it.

However, I went into session not really feeling like playing, and as a result I was mentally unprepared for the negative variance. I'm happy I didn't spew, but I can see that what happened is because I wasn't fully ready to accept whatever came my way and make the most of the situation, is that I ended up going into kind of a nitty defensive shell.

It's a very standard leak, and something I've worked on in the past. I'm not thrilled that I thought I played well and saw a different truth in review, but it's also important to be aware of what happened and why I was in that state so that I can in the future be better prepared.

If anything, I really don't even think it was a failure in my play, it was a failure in my WARMUP PROCESS. I went into session in a state that made me susceptible to falling off my A game in the face of negative variance.

Live and learn.

Probably playing live again tonight. I have been playing more live lately. I don't at all plan on transitioning my poker focus from live to online, but I've been trying to improve some live related leaks and having fun at it and enjoying a little break from the online grind. So, I'm viewing it as a healthy diversion and growth opportunity but also need to be mindful that although that is true, there is also truth that I am exhibiting some avoidance behavior as well in regards to my "real job".