Quote:
Originally Posted by baannii4
h1-i like the donk but why not larger vs fish? i understand a small sizing 2 ways but i think this dynamic is much different? villain has way better hands on river to call with than this combo no? like boats, all suited straights (if he opens 54s), 99-1010, overs that unblock diamonds/hearts, 78. can't really see how his call can be good
sizing up means we either become too polar, or are forced mix, which might not be bad, but mixing this spot is really hard and I don't want to become polar vs humans who probably don't react very well to lots of bets (no discredit to shiffty who was utg, it's just that defending vs leads is like defending vs utg limps; both are very understudied).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinMonk
Quote:
Originally Posted by yasuo
did you change your approach to the game from mid-2017 as the red line started to shoot up?
Yes
Can you elaborate on that?
Gl
simply this: raising more, calling more; folding less. most low stake (<= 500z) NL players are super nitty when compared with optimal frequencies. the closer you get to "GTO", the more your red line will go up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shifftyy
Making the top 10 list makes losing this hand not hurt as bad. I think it's an easy fold against a lot of the weak regs at 200z, but it's probably close to indifferent against Clanty.
I think his turn sizing is good. He maybe could go smaller, but idk if that's better. In general, we tend to see smaller sizings in mw spots as protection because more important and using large sizings against two (relatively) uncapped ranges usually forces one to bet too narrow of a range. This particular card is gonna be really nice for BB, and he can probably donk as thin as pair + sd. Using a large size will force him to be too polar and check too frequently. Given that I'm gonna check back so much of my range on this turn, this doesn't bode well for him.
I can't slowplay turn that often. I do use an rng for basically every decision, but the frequency of better combos in my range is really low. I also probably shouldn't call every time. However, Clanty has sooooo many nice bluff candidates. Meh.
agree with everything you said about turn lead sizing
whether or not you should call every time is, for all intensive purposes, an impossible question to answer; MW river spots that featured a lead at one or more points in the hand is a guessing game, even to the best of us!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenoblade
pretty sure KKd is close to 0% call on the river, RNG really ****ed you over if you had to click call, you generally want to block his value hands and none of the bluffs and absolute hand strength wise you're not even up there either
i don't think the diamond makes any difference at all, in fact the diamond comboes may be the best to call
as for unblocking bluffs, utg hasn't a single combo that does that completely, and the best comboes (that block the least bluffs) are overpairs, specifically QQ+.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doctor877
love me some mw pots
always the most fun imo!
Quote:
Originally Posted by shifftyy
Yeah, fair enough.
My wording was unclear. My RNG comment was referring to the turn, but yes it's applicable to river too.
My diamond blocker is relatively insignificant here as I don't think he can peel K BDFD otf. 99/TT might be better, but I'm not convinced that he's never betting T8/98/T7 type hands ott.
I'm not sure how you expect to have many stronger combos in terms of absolute hand strength. Yes, they'll occasionally get slowplayed, but they (set +) just have to raise turn a lot imo vs this size. I also think I need two river sizings. The nutty combos will only sometimes fall into the smaller bet.
IDK. I could also get behind just folding every time, but I think Clanty (correctly) identifies this as a pretty spicy bluff spot :P. My call would be a complete punt against many people. In hindsight, I kinda am just leaning towards fold -- but I would be shocked if it's losing much vs hero.
like I said, impossible to know really, and even if I did have a further idea about it, there's no way I'm letting an opposing good reg know about it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenoblade
wouldn't clanty have to be overbluffing by quite a bit to make this call +EV? I could be off here but it feels like when he leads turn with a fish in the hand he probably has less bluff than if he would do the same against regs
Also if you play your range in such a way that KK is very near the top of ur range then we should definitely pick blockers to call this massive overbet. You could raise KK some of the time too on turn so that on the river when you end up in this particular spot you don't feel like you're overfolding these type of holdings
I don't think I'd need to overbluff to then make KK a call. pretty sure it goes KK>TT>99 in terms of bluffcatching comboes
Quote:
Originally Posted by day'n'night
Too much strat in this thread
nooo!
Quote:
Originally Posted by shifftyy
Idk if he is overbluffing, but it is a spot where he has a plethora of bluff candidates (pair + straight blocker; counterfeited 2p). Turn raise is a fun idea. I'm more inclined to do that with TT/99 because they need slightly more protection and they also push more equity.
Yeah.. oops. I usually shy away from it, but this was a fun hand for which I may or may not deserve to get roasted . Sorry for the hijacking, Clanty.
not hijacked at all mate, conversations like these are most welcomed in here!
Quote:
Originally Posted by baannii4
i like the analysis of your hand but i mean vs this size u literally only have to defend like 27% of ur range and surely u have enough 99/1010 and nuts that protect ur small river size to fold KK
Quote:
Originally Posted by shifftyy
Good point. I definitely can't argue with that.
yea 27% is a tight range to defend, but KK definitely comes before TT 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOLCh1pPorn
In for strat
GL OP!
woo! cheers, welcome
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurtNCYDE
Since when do you play cash?
gotta give those mtt guys some help
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapidesh123
do you know how hard it is to overbluff this river?
Clanty has a ton of valuebets there and he will always x/jam those. Even massive aggrotards won't bluff the river 40% of the time, calling with KKdx is terrible imo. With your explo sizing it's even worse, since it's possible clanty will explo valuebet as thin as 2x
well I'm really glad you know my game better than I do myself!
seriously, though, you don't know me or my strat, and you don't know 40% from 20%, 30% or 50%, so how can you call his play terrible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenoblade
You need to use the word explo Rapidesh, no offense but it's pretty clear you've never ran a sim, you probably don't have PIO so you don't know which lines, sizings and frequencies are exploitative, just because a bet is small doesn't mean it can be exploited, same with an overbet
agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapidesh123
how can shifty have a hand that beats 2x with that sizing? Is he betting fhs for that sizing with a fish in the pot?
I would be quite surprised if he could have a FH OTR even before betting.
thinking shifty has no hands that beat 2x
just because he bet 1/3 otr is bonkers mate, simple as that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenoblade
why does he need to beat 2x with that sizing?
lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by SauloCosta
Where did u get the idea that because he may not have FHs in his range, betting small is exploitative? I think you need to figure out what exploitative means
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
maybe I'm being stupid, but I don't follow your post, sorry!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CRAIBaby
IGOR DOURDENNNNNNN????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????/
ps hope the only reason im not on that list is because you tagged me as a 500reg :@
igor is rly good imo, at least, I struggle a lot vs the guy!
correct
Quote:
Originally Posted by CRAIBaby
this discussion about that KK T9 hand is completely useless.
Lol
@people actually trying to discuss gto when multiway with a fish in the pot
@you guys believing theoretical gto player IP has many nutcombos/stronger hands otr
@people misunderstanding blocker effects wrt to Kd, TT, 99
not useless at all
fwiw, my strat postflop doesn't change one bit with the fish in the pot, just not worth the ev with all the confusion it brings imo
definitely agree with the misconceptions ref TT 99 blockers
Quote:
Originally Posted by SauloCosta
+1
It's just a reg that felt capped against a capable reg and leveled himself into calling. We have all been there
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
hehe, my favourite part is when they time bank for 90 seconds
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirage01
When Rapidesh is calling your play terrible , you know its bad.
oh mirage, how I wonder why you are such a downer on things lol, being nice isn't a crime you know!
Quote:
Originally Posted by yasuo
looks at op's red line and tell me he is not overbluffing everywhere!
lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Melchor
Pretty much this and the reason why I really like Clantys turn size
ty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Elsa
KK > TT-99 as a hero all day
I like shiffty's line fwiw.
Cool hand
agree with ya, and I also like/agree with shifty's line
Quote:
Originally Posted by yasuo
mind elaborating?
TT 99 blocks lots and lots of pair+draw hands that are incentivised to xjam river
Quote:
Originally Posted by shifftyy
It's very possible (if not likely) that he's betting Tx/9x pairs ott. On the river his nutty combos (T9 is what's relevant here) will split between bet and xr. His Tx/9x pair combos, however, will always x and always have a tempting xr vs my bet. Depending on his exact strategy, TT/99 can easily have poor blocking effects. Also, not every player has T9o pre in this spot.
I agree with all three things CRAI lold at even though I'm not sure if he's making fun of me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .
Rapid, I think we approach poker a little differently. I do appreciate your's, Xeno's, and Saulo's feedback though. I'm gonna fight the temptation to hog OP's thread any longer by continuing to comment on this hand, but I look forward to his thoughts.
agree about TT 99
I don't think crai was berating you btw!
you aren't hogging my thread at all, these replies are very much welcomed
Quote:
Originally Posted by SalmoTrutta
Someone needs to summon teh Timstone.
Gl OP, will be a fun read!
plz no
cheers, hope you enjoy it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by HU4hoes
Let’s hear the worst 10 regs at 200z
noooo
, only positive things in this thread!
Quote:
Originally Posted by baannii4
i guess it can be difficult to know clanty's frequencies wrt 910 and other bluffs with hands containing a 9 or a 10 in this spot so 99 or 1010 not being a good bluffcatcher does make sense. it's actually a really interesting hand now tbh
is there any merit to calling a hand like 87 or 86 here over KK or do you also expect some bluffs to contain an 8/7/6 in them. In spots like this how is it even possible to determine what hands are good to call when trying to guess how frequently the hands you block might bluff? like how do u balance the positives of blocking nuts to the negatives of blocking bluffs
ref balancing blocking the nuts/bluffs:
all you can do (imo) is the short math in the time of the hands constraints and then work it out after. this becomes exponentially harder in spots especially like this, where one or more ranges have many, many offsuit comboes, which just makes the combo-work that much harder to figure out on the fly!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapidesh123
Always classy, man
Sorry if my post sounded offensive
doubt anyone was offended mate... people can disagree, it's all good.
imo, it's in your best interests to also be aware of other potential strategies. for example, if shiffty showed 54s, everything you said gets thrown out the window. also, you put me into a category that you've intuitively built without ever playing against me, do you not see the contradiction in that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pontylad
Had to have that **** bot Zas in there
lol, for real, or just trolling? either way he's really annoying to play against, so props to him!